[mtautomoscow]

Thanks for the correction on the habaki, Paul. Forgot about that. If that's the case, the shinai is a 2.6 which is long but not stupid long.

The shinai tsuka is longer for two reasons, in my opinion:

1. The kote are bulky. I don't think there's enough room on a standard-sized iaito tsuka to hold with kote.
2. To allow extra leverage for all the waza you can do with shinai that you can't with steel.

[mosypeSom]

... a standard bokuto ...

Of course, while ZNKR now has a standard bokuto, there's plenty of koryu with varying 'standard' bokuto (and others without a standard definition).

J

[Cricequorie]

Thanks for the correction on the habaki, Paul. Forgot about that. If that's the case, the shinai is a 2.6 which is long but not stupid long.

The shinai tsuka is longer for two reasons, in my opinion:

1. The kote are bulky. I don't think there's enough room on a standard-sized iaito tsuka to hold with kote.
2. To allow extra leverage for all the waza you can do with shinai that you can't with steel.

This is where I ask, as a student, what waza can you do with a shinai that you can't do with steel?

(in case the list is long just list a couple/few things and I can try to extrapolate it)

[Staillateno]

I don't think there's any of the standard waza you can't do, it's just the speed at which they are executed due to the lightness and the leverage. Also the width of the shinai makes it more forgiving for suriagi-waza and the like.

[RjkVwPcV]

This is where I ask, as a student, what waza can you do with a shinai that you can't do with steel?

You can pretty much rule out most nidan waza, such as kote-men.

[klubneras]

This is where I ask, as a student, what waza can you do with a shinai that you can't do with steel?

I would be interested in anyone's thoughts that hiki-waza is not "real sword" technique.

[DghtRdc]

Duh. Yeah, that.

[VZF74G0M]

How are nidan waza and hiki waza not "real sword techniques"? What about a real sword prohibits multiple strikes or cutting while stepping back?

[V8V8V8]

Of course, while ZNKR now has a standard bokuto, there's plenty of koryu with varying 'standard' bokuto (and others without a standard definition).

Since this thread is about the difference in length between bokuto and shinai in kendo, how is that relevant? I don't think anyone is asking why shinai of Kashima Shin Ryu aren't the same size as bokuto from Tennen Rishin Ryu, are they?

[Sillaycheg]

How are nidan waza and hiki waza not "real sword techniques"?

First off, as a kendoka I'm talking out my ass when it comes to real sword techniques. This is idle speculation on teh interwebz here.

The main problem that I can think of with nidan waza is that if a real sword connects on the first target, there's going to be some trouble getting it to the second target. The most common is kote-men, where as kendoka we typically rely on the kensen popping up off the kote to carry on into the men. With a real sword, you'd have to either miss (ie the kote is a feint, not an attack) or clear the sword from the kote by either yanking it or driving it through. All of those options are much different than a kendo kote-men, which as I've said is pretty shinai/bogu reliant.

I'm not sure why hiki-waza wouldn't work.

[Imagimifouxum]

How are nidan waza and hiki waza not "real sword techniques"? What about a real sword prohibits multiple strikes or cutting while stepping back?

It doesn't bounce back?

[Jasonstawnosaa]

I would be interested in anyone's thoughts that hiki-waza is not "real sword" technique.

I think hiki-waza could be a perfectly legit "real sword" technique, but it would look somewhat different than shinai hiki-waza. From tsuba-zeriai, you could use the tsuba-to-tsuba point as a fulcrum to inflict a cut on your opponent. It may not be fatal, but it could certainly do enough damage to give you an opportunity for the coup de grace.

[MaickiP]

How are nidan waza and hiki waza not "real sword techniques"? What about a real sword prohibits multiple strikes or cutting while stepping back?

How would hiki waza work? In kendo the shinai are right in front of your face, if they were shinken I know I wouldn't let anything sharp in front of my face, maybe out to the side like in the 10th kata. Granted it's all hypothetical but if you were in that close wouldn't you try something physical to separate, kick, punch, what have you? As for the nidan waza is something like that possible with something so heavy like a shinken, are there other arts that have quick succession hits like kote-men, I've only done a little koyru and seitei so I have no idea.

[nabsgood]

I happen to be practicing Shinto-ryu these days which is the kenjutsu (sword to sword) set from Shindo Muso-ryu jodo and there are two kata that pop to mind which cut on a step back, both are an uke nagashi to beside uchidachi, then a step back to make distance and finish cut.

So there's hiki waza for you. Can't think of a hiki kiri in Niten Ichiryu offhand but there's a place or two where we step back to avoid getting hit, and sweep uchidachi's bokuto aside before attacking back in. Oops, yes of course, there are a bunch on the uchidachi side.

On the length of the shinai tsuka, it's obviously because kendo is more accurate than the other kenjutsu schools since as we all know the samurai used tsuka which were very much longer than those on swords and bokuto today.

OK OK not trying to start anything... actually the shinai tsuka is that length because of the big influence of jodo on kendo, and the grip on the jo is about the same as the grip on the shinai.

No? How about the classical ratio of tsuka to overall length is 1:4. Does that work on your average shinai?

Kim.

[allemnendup]

First off, as a kendoka I'm talking out my ass when it comes to real sword techniques. This is idle speculation on teh interwebz here.

The main problem that I can think of with nidan waza is that if a real sword connects on the first target, there's going to be some trouble getting it to the second target. The most common is kote-men, where as kendoka we typically rely on the kensen popping up off the kote to carry on into the men. With a real sword, you'd have to either miss (ie the kote is a feint, not an attack) or clear the sword from the kote by either yanking it or driving it through. All of those options are much different than a kendo kote-men, which as I've said is pretty shinai/bogu reliant.

I'm not sure why hiki-waza wouldn't work.

my idle speculation would be that the men is unnecessary if you connect with the kote, you would only move to the men if you missed (ie he dodged or he blocked.) I agree that a nidan waza where both are good cuts are pretty illegitimate, but in kendo if your intent was kote men, but the kote was good, don't you just take the kote and show zanshin? there is no need to take the men as well unless the kote was only to open up the men....

[duawLauff]

there is no need to take the men as well unless the kote was only to open up the men....

Kote-men is often executed in just that fashion.

[Gremlinn]

How would hiki waza work? In kendo the shinai are right in front of your face . . .

Hiki waza doesn't require taiatari or tsubazeriai, but, even so, there are koryu kenjutsu that have kata involving tsubazeriai. Tsukikage/tsubadome, zetsumyoken, and ganseki otoshi of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu spring to mind.

[LindaSmithXV]

So ancient nihonto had tsuka longer than todays counterpart?

Very interesting....
Aside the debating, it wouldn't be more appropiate if this post is moved to the "shinai" section?

[InvertPrete]

Hiki waza doesn't require taiatari or tsubazeriai, but, even so, there are koryu kenjutsu that have kata involving tsubazeriai. Tsukikage/tsubadome, zetsumyoken, and ganseki otoshi of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu spring to mind.

There are several techniques in Kashima Shin Ryu where if you find yourself in tsuba zeriai you either work your sword around the opponents one and put your blade in his neck. You can grab hold of his tsuka and wrestle his sword out of his hands. Punch him in the sternum(sp?) with your tsuka and then throw him on the ground while you wrestle his sword out of his hands. So I think that tsuba zeriai could be a dangerous thing with live blades if you're not used to this stuff.

[Rx-Ultram]

So ancient nihonto had tsuka longer than todays counterpart? T'was a joking reference to very old internet arguments on various fora.