[xresultsearch]

Recently I've spotted a number of threads where beginners (like myself) ask a question or seek advice. Helas the answer or advice given may not always be what they wished for, instead of accepting it or be reasonable and willing to discuss the matter with arguments they just act childish and spoiled.

"I wanna" or "because I'm right" is NOT an accepted argument. Listen/read why certain things are a certain way, conduct a search for more info on the subject. And remember that we are just beginners, that sometimes we just have to shut up and trust things are the way they are. There's a reason why they are 3,4,7 dan and we're just beginners it's not because they paid or cheated it's because they have more experience/knowlodge on the subject at hand.

Why ask a question or seek advice when the you just disregard the answer or advice when it isn't in your favor/view?

ps. I have no idea if I posted this in the right section so don't hesitate to move it into the flames section.

[Penisvergroesserung]

people have need to confirm that they are right. if they are told that they are wrong, it's normal for most of them to get pissed. i have no problem with that part.

what i have problem with is when they go out of their way to say that their sensei and sempai are wrong. that gets to me a bit. first, that sensei and sempai are wasting time with someone who doesn't trust them. and the person who is learning is using sensei and sempai for whatever twisted reason they have. it's just wrong. i call these people assholes.

pete

[glopomcyte]

Why ask a question or seek advice when the you just disregard the answer or advice when it isn't in your favor/view?

I think nowadays a lot of people expect to get their own way. They may seek to have some form of validation for their course of action and when that conflicts with their own self importance they immediately baulk at the response.

You only have to look at X-Factor/Pop Idol to see that many people are of the opinion they are important, they have a talent and deserve fame. They get up on stage and assorted 'experts' judge them and when it meets disapproval how many folks refuse to believe them? It's a wider situation than the kendo-world forum. Whatever happened to just wanting to be average? I am distinctly average [apart from the devastatingly good looks] and I get by in life just fine.

[BamSaitinypap]

Beginners who ask questions are great.

Beginners who ask questions and then argue about the answers they get are even better.

Both make the instructor think. If they're not holding up the class there's no problem and lots of benefit to the instructor.

If said beginner won't listen to the answer and think about it on their side, they are wasting a learning opportunity.

If said beginner is absolutely set against what the instructor is teaching, and wishes to do it their own way the problem will self-correct. The beginner will eventually get tired of beating their head against the wall and leave the class.

No problem.

There are ego-benefits to doing what sensei says without question, even if you have questions, but that has to be tempered with some basic intelligence. "If sensei told you to go jump off a bridge would you do it?"

Kim.

[Andrius]

I like that view on the matter Kim. However i think ArcticBlizzard means the head-beating-to-the-wall type. I can understand they can be tiyring for some people especially when they spend time on a reaction and the asker just discards the answer.

You could also just ignore the people that anoy you

[PNCarl]

why ask why, try bud dry!.. i tried it. i know i don't like it. if sensei ask me to jump off a bridge, i'll go and look down and see what is under it, then i'll politely ask the sensei "please lead by example".

pete

[kjsdiuwe]

I like that view on the matter Kim. However i think ArcticBlizzard means the head-beating-to-the-wall type. I can understand they can be tiyring for some people especially when they spend time on a reaction and the asker just discards the answer.

You could also just ignore the people that anoy you

Yep, but those students go away soon enough so there's really no cause for annoyance. Remember that instructors in the martial arts are often looking at things from a 20-30 year perspective. Having a student hang around for 10 or 12 classes arguing about everything isn't really a problem.

Kim.

[Affiltavajefe]

... and then there's those students that say "well, _____ Sensei says do it this way"

I may jump off a bridge if you said to. Especially if it was only a couple of feet off the ground and over a good spot for beer and chicken wings.

[hrthwhr]

Especially if it was only a couple of feet off the ground and over a good spot for beer and chicken wings.

depends on which beer and who made the chicken wing. i had some bad beers. and chicken wings from some places are just not something you want to put in your mouth.

pete

[allvideO]

you have to consider the fact that the people sometimes ask questions when they already
know the answer . xD

[Indessasp]

you have to consider the fact that the people sometimes ask questions when they already
know the answer . xD

It's more like, some people think they know the answer and to hell with the facts.

I understand that the "because I said so" response to "why do it this way" isn't a very satisfying answer but sometimes it's the best answer you can get because you are not at a level where you would be able to understand or appreciate a more complete answer. People refuse to accept that their intelligence, no matter how grand it may be, is not a substitute for wisdom gained through experience.

[hygtfrdes]

It's more like, some people think they know the answer and to hell with the facts.

I understand that the "because I said so" response to "why do it this way" isn't a very satisfying answer but sometimes it's the best answer you can get because you are not at a level where you would be able to understand or appreciate a more complete answer. People refuse to accept that their intelligence, no matter how grand it may be, is not a substitute for wisdom gained through experience.

I don't think any instructor should be saying "because I said so", it's not only provocative to western students, it's also harmful to the instructor. Anybody who says that may start believing it and that way lies sokeship in your own special little ryu.

The correct way to admit that you don't have a good reason for doing something is to say "try it for a while and see".

Kim.

[LsrSRVxR]

I don't think any instructor should be saying "because I said so", it's not only provocative to western students, it's also harmful to the instructor. Anybody who says that may start believing it and that way lies sokeship in your own special little ryu.

The correct way to admit that you don't have a good reason for doing something is to say "try it for a while and see".

Well, sometimes you have a good reason and you still don't want to tell them. I agree that maybe "because I said so" is a little off-putting, but I don't have to explain the reasons behind every instruction I give. I think it's important that I understand them, though.

[actrisski]

I like to give beginners a sense of the reasoning behind why they should do something a certain way (e.g. why do you hold the shinai with the tsuru facing down when your holding it at your side). But there's a risk to talking to much. I prefer to spend the time having them do stuff rather than talk about stuff. Talking too much can sap the momentum out of practice.

Sweeping over-generalization alert: The beginners who tend to ask too many questions don't seem to last very long. It's those ones who doggedly wash, rinse and repeat who tend to stick it out.

Plenty of time for questions at second dojo.

[Erawise]

I think nowadays a lot of people expect to get their own way. They may seek to have some form of validation for their course of action and when that conflicts with their own self importance they immediately baulk at the response.

You only have to look at X-Factor/Pop Idol to see that many people are of the opinion they are important, they have a talent and deserve fame. They get up on stage and assorted 'experts' judge them and when it meets disapproval how many folks refuse to believe them? It's a wider situation than the kendo-world forum. Whatever happened to just wanting to be average? I am distinctly average [apart from the devastatingly good looks] and I get by in life just fine.

Why would anyone want to be average?

I like that view on the matter Kim. However i think ArcticBlizzard means the head-beating-to-the-wall type. I can understand they can be tiyring for some people especially when they spend time on a reaction and the asker just discards the answer.

You could also just ignore the people that anoy you

Then there's the people like me...uhm, I (don't think?) I usually ask questions in class. (I just talk too much during post-keiko...heh) but yesterday I ventured out enough to ask a question. The Sensei gave an answer and I just stared at him blankely, nodded my head and said uh huh. I didn't get it at all. Or maybe he didnt answer my question? Er.... Whatever, I'll figure it out eventually...

I like to give beginners a sense of the reasoning behind why they should do something a certain way (e.g. why do you hold the shinai with the tsuru facing down when your holding it at your side). But there's a risk to talking to much. I prefer to spend the time having them do stuff rather than talk about stuff. Talking too much can sap the momentum out of practice.

Sweeping over-generalization alert: The beginners who tend to ask too many questions don't seem to last very long. It's those ones who doggedly wash, rinse and repeat who tend to stick it out.

Plenty of time for questions at second dojo.

Uhm, my kendo understanding is too dense to get it when people explain things anyway. Even so, I'm going to try to listen and observe more, rather than ask questions...because asking questions just doesn't seem to help much. >.

[Heliosprime]

I understand that the "because I said so" response to "why do it this way" isn't a very satisfying answer but sometimes it's the best answer you can get because you are not at a level where you would be able to understand or appreciate a more complete answer. People refuse to accept that their intelligence, no matter how grand it may be, is not a substitute for wisdom gained through experience. I disagree. As a beginner, whenever I hear this answer from an instructor, it lowers my opinion of them just that little bit. Either they don't know and aren't willing to admit it, or they don't have the patience to explain it to me. Both are qualities you don't want to see in an instructor.

Now, I don't expect to understand the answer they give me when I ask why, heck, I don't understand 90% of the answers I get with Iaido, but the fact that the instructor has taken the time to share his knowledge is what counts. Also, a personal anecdote, when I was practising, I had a sempai tell me that I was drawing my sword incorrectly. When I asked why, I was told that it was a tradition to do it the way suggested. While I tried, I simply couldn't break the habit. The next week my sensei noticed that I was drawing the sword incorrectly and explained why. I instantly stopped doing it.

[mussmicky]

The culture I learned in was that practice is for practicing. After practice is for asking question...over some food and drink perhaps. That gets a good balance between doing and asking...and teaches the patience to store up the question..which often lets you think about and find the answer yourself.

[Varbaiskkic]

The culture I learned in was that practice is for practicing. After practice is for asking question...over some food and drink perhaps. That gets a good balance between doing and asking...and teaches the patience to store up the question..which often lets you think about and find the answer yourself.

Yes, that's why they call it "second dojo."

[Sthjrderfida]

I disagree. As a beginner, whenever I hear this answer from an instructor, it lowers my opinion of them just that little bit. Either they don't know and aren't willing to admit it, or they don't have the patience to explain it to me. Both are qualities you don't want to see in an instructor.

Well, I can't say much towards iaido instruction since I'm a kendoist and my sensei is a kendoist, but there have been times when my sensei stops himself from explaining and nods to me and says, "I shouldn't say too much more, I don't want to confuse you"

Mainly because there have been times when he has explained, and between his words and my interpretation of his words I've gotten it completely wrong and it took longer to fix because I was thinking too much about something.

[xIuvyAuT]

The correct way to admit that you don't have a good reason for doing something is to say "try it for a while and see".

I don't disagree that this is a better way to think of it but I do worry that it's not always the best way to say it. I'm not sure I can explain my thoughts well but I'll try.

My concern is, as you already pointed out, western students tend to take "because I said so" as a sort of challenge and saying things in another way might defuse this behavioral tendency. However, the sensei shouldn't have to explain things simply because a student demands it. In martial arts, the eastern mindset that expects one to practice until understanding comes, is more useful. Oftentimes there simply is no foundation for the student to understand the explanation or even attempting to put the explanation into words will almost certainly be more confusing, like trying to explain color to a blind man. The student has to have a certain amount of experience before he can grasp the concept intellectually. My concern is that catering to a western idea that students have a right to continually question the sensei does not belong in a pursuit of the martial arts. This is the kind of thinking that is more applicable to intellectual pursuits like the sciences. I also tend to resent the excessive political correctness of modern society and I think people need to hear "no" or "shut up and practice" more often because otherwise they would tend to take too much liberty with the sensei's time.