[salomal-qask]

I don't disagree that this is a better way to think of it but I do worry that it's not always the best way to say it. I'm not sure I can explain my thoughts well but I'll try.

My concern is, as you already pointed out, western students tend to take "because I said so" as a sort of challenge and saying things in another way might defuse this behavioral tendency.

Your probably right. Most of us (westerners) hear that as children...and of course as children, it makes us want to push the boundaries of whoever is saying that. Same with "just because."

Maybe if they said something like "just do it" ??

it's a little harsh, but I think I would "just do it" or whatever if I was told that.

and it makes me think of Nike.

[Deseassaugs]

I don't think any instructor should be saying "because I said so", it's not only provocative to western students, it's also harmful to the instructor. Anybody who says that may start believing it and that way lies sokeship in your own special little ryu.

The correct way to admit that you don't have a good reason for doing something is to say "try it for a while and see".

Kim.

I respond slightly differently, generally I would say that that's the way I do it and it's got me this far. I may have to change it later, but if at my stage it works, then at the student's stage it probably will too.

[gortusbig]

To preface, I feel that maybe Kim is commenting about the specific phrase "because I said so," but I am talking here about the sentiment behind it and not so much the specific wording. "Try it a while and see" is the same basic idea behind "because I said so," since it also offers no explanation, so some people who want a "good answer" are no less frustrated by that kind of answer:

For what it's worth, I was brought up to believe that teachers aren't obligated to explain themselves. While "because I said so" might be intellectually unsatisfying, it is, to me, an acceptable response and only suggests to me that I am not trying hard enough as a student.

I think asking questions and understanding the reason behind things is an important part of learning, and so people should not be shy about asking questions, and they should be encouraged with politeness and good answers.

That said, I think it is very easy to cross the line into the arrogance of thinking that either, as a student, you have some kind of entitlement or privilege to demand the answer from someone who is only there as a friend to help you along in your own personal development, or, as a teacher, you have a better understanding of "why" than you really do.

From the student's perspective, there is not fundamentally that much difference between a student doing something because their instructor gave them an explanation and their instructor telling them "because I said so," other than to cater to ego. The student has no way of knowing if the explanation is correct, so in both cases the student has to trust the instructor. The main difference is that giving an answer is to give the student the impression that they now also understand the "truth," whereas the less satisfying answer leaves no such misconception. Consider, for example, a 4-kyu asking a 1-kyu that is teaching them something "why." The intellectually honest answer is "I don't know, this is how they showed me, just practice it this way for now," which amounts to the same response as "tradition" or "because I said so." That is an extreme example, but it isn't really that different for many levels of instructors. It is often said that Mochida sensei has said that it took him 50 years to learn the fundamentals of kendo. Not many instructors have that kind of experience.

I think that sometimes both students and teachers should be satisfied that "because I said so" is the best possible answer. People who feel challenged by "because I said so" or are embarrassed to admit to the limits of their knowledge should stop treating learning as a competition. I include myself, as I struggle with this kind of egotism as well.

[ñàéäèíã]

If I say "because I say so" I have given an explanation. It is that you should do this because I am the expert, the authority, and I say it is to be done in this way or at this time and that is sufficient reason and explanation for you to do it. I have said such a thing to students and it's been in reference to doing something they haven't done before, something that I deduced for myself. Whey they ask why do this, or who says we should do this I have said "I say it".

One should be very careful when saying this because it puts the entire responsibility for the actions on he who says it.

This is much different than saying "try it and see" or as Peter says "it's worked for me it will likely work for you". These are ways of saying "there is an explanation, it should make itself clear to you in the future, for now you should just do it and wait for the answer to come to you".

In none of these cases are we talking about a 1kyu teaching a 4kyu. In that case the correct answer is "sensei says we do it this way" or some variant of same.

Kim.

[gymnAnemoe]

In my own opinion and this is what I learned through out my works and kendo. There are certain matters that people experienced with trial and errors to come to the only way to do certain things. That is why we learned from the history. However, there are more different way to do something that makes the society moving forward. There are some thing that you listen and make and improvement and you are welcome to try different way. However, you have to prepare to face consequences yourselves. My point is you listen and judge it for yourselves. Asking a question is a very good thing and do not participate or just don't ask a question at all is sometime a bad thing. Recently, I had to fire a guy who act like he understood the problem without asking a question or acknowledge it until he made a same mistake that I told him about. Is it worth it? Up to you.

Asking a question and if you got the answer is the privilege. Remember that.

[bppstorr]

Your probably right. Most of us (westerners) hear that as children...and of course as children, it makes us want to push the boundaries of whoever is saying that. Same with "just because."

.

From experience, my kids had a big love for the word "why". It was infuriating at the time; it is no less infuriating with students lol

I joke (well pretty much) but I think sometimes you just have to tell the student to have a little faith in what is being taught and the anwser should be revealed.

I respond slightly differently, generally I would say that that's the way I do it and it's got me this far. I may have to change it later, but if at my stage it works, then at the student's stage it probably will too.

I have adopted this as well and it works well.

I also think it is the humility of it that works.

Another one I have found works is to be honest when you don't know the answer to the question. I have no issue in saying that I will find out or suggesting that the question be raised at a national seminar with higher grades who can answer it correctly.

If I say "because I say so" I have given an explanation. It is that you should do this because I am the expert, the authority, and I say it is to be done in this way or at this time and that is sufficient reason and explanation for you to do it. I have said such a thing to students and it's been in reference to doing something they haven't done before, something that I deduced for myself. Whey they ask why do this, or who says we should do this I have said "I say it".

One should be very careful when saying this because it puts the entire responsibility for the actions on he who says it.

This is much different than saying "try it and see" or as Peter says "it's worked for me it will likely work for you". These are ways of saying "there is an explanation, it should make itself clear to you in the future, for now you should just do it and wait for the answer to come to you".

In none of these cases are we talking about a 1kyu teaching a 4kyu. In that case the correct answer is "sensei says we do it this way" or some variant of same.

Kim.

To be honest Kim, even at Godan, I still find I say this at times. It's not that I lack confidence in my knowledge base just that sometimes it seems the most appropriate response to the question. And despite that modern bullshit that there is no such thing as a stupid question, you sometimes find that you are asked something so odd that it would either take forever and a day to answer, or the answer will only prompt more questions and you become aware that the training time has become solely question time.

[GillTeepbew]

Well, sometimes you have a good reason and you still don't want to tell them. I agree that maybe "because I said so" is a little off-putting, but I don't have to explain the reasons behind every instruction I give. I think it's important that I understand them, though.

I once had a professor in med school tell me that you can occasionally fool patients, but never fool yourself.

[StivRichardOff]

Beginners who ask questions are great.

Beginners who ask questions and then argue about the answers they get are even better.

Both make the instructor think. If they're not holding up the class there's no problem and lots of benefit to the instructor.

If said beginner won't listen to the answer and think about it on their side, they are wasting a learning opportunity.

If said beginner is absolutely set against what the instructor is teaching, and wishes to do it their own way the problem will self-correct. The beginner will eventually get tired of beating their head against the wall and leave the class.

No problem.

There are ego-benefits to doing what sensei says without question, even if you have questions, but that has to be tempered with some basic intelligence. "If sensei told you to go jump off a bridge would you do it?"

Kim.

I'm not against asking questions, if somebody doesn't understand a certain thing/technique I applaud him/her who has the guts the to ask a question about it. It takes guts to let alone ask a question, so he/she deserves a proper answer. I was mainly talking about people who seek advice or ask a question but don't actually want to hear the answer when the answer given does not correspond with their view on the subject. Now if you could discuss with that student/user why certain things are a certain way (kendo,iaido, math) in a normal grown-up fashion with arguments and facts it would be ok. But when they simply disregard the answer, and claim that it's different just because..... that's just irritating.
I actually find it very offensive.

And of course you should always be able to ask questions and you should question the answers that have been given. Otherwise you wouldn't fully benefit of the situation, but there are times that it's best to bite your tongue and just be quiet. Jumping off a bridge is of course not that time

I like that view on the matter Kim. However i think ArcticBlizzard means the head-beating-to-the-wall type. I can understand they can be tiyring for some people especially when they spend time on a reaction and the asker just discards the answer.

You could also just ignore the people that anoy you

You hit the mark straight on!

[Flistelib]

There is a saying in Romanian: If one guy says you’re crazy you should tell him to check his head. If two guys say you’re crazy, you should check your head. (well the translation it’s not my strong point and no offence intended here)

I think one would ask confirmation on a decision because he’s being contradicted by others so he hopes to find the second person that would agree with him and thus proving he is not the only one with that opinion.
(hopes this makes sense)
It’s all about stubbornness and I admit I have done this couple of times - outside the dojo boundaries of course. (I’m working on it, really ).
There are a couple of situation when you really are the only one right but not when questioning people with much, much, much more experience then you.

[Erossycuc]

Massively generalizing, the "Eastern" way is for the instructor to do, demonstrate, and expound at his leisure, and for the student to watch, listen, and internally question. The "Western" way is for the instructor to explain and demonstrate, and for the student to further their understanding with questions, which the instructor answers.

Socratic questioning is a nice bridge between these two extremes. When the student asks "Why is this?", respond, "Why do you think it is?" The teacher then gets an idea of the student's understanding, and the student doesn't feel shut out of the process. It encourages the student to find the answer themselves, something that's simply expected in the traditional "Eastern" way, but may have to be spelled out to Western students.

Interestingly, in public schools the process is reversed: Japanese students, for example, get everything spelled out for them, which they dutifully commit to memory, while Western students (at least in America) are encouraged to think about the "why" and creatively come to their own conclusion. Utimately, in both traditions there is a custom of the teacher giving the student a "koan" for them to chew on.

[asSexate]

I am wondering, in general, would it just be better to try to figure out the answer for yourself in Kendo by observing other high ranking kendoka, (instead of just asking a question?)

I find that, even when I ask questions, I still don't really understand (after I get the answer). I just have a feeling it might be better if I observed more, asked questions less.

[samanthalueus]

I am wondering, in general, would it just be better to try to figure out the answer for yourself in Kendo by observing other high ranking kendoka, (instead of just asking a question?)

I find that, even when I ask questions, I still don't really understand (after I get the answer). I just have a feeling it might be better if I observed more, asked questions less.

Somtime asking the question without thinking the problem first is back fire too. Use eyes and ears more than mouth, and of course, there are useless without brain.

[FourEsters]

I am wondering, in general, would it just be better to try to figure out the answer for yourself in Kendo by observing other high ranking kendoka, (instead of just asking a question?)

I find that, even when I ask questions, I still don't really understand (after I get the answer). I just have a feeling it might be better if I observed more, asked questions less.

Listen more carefully to sensei. You'll probably find they've been saying the same thing over, and over again; but it's not registering on you. One day you'll hear them say something and it will click.