[Sillaycheg]

Here's a question for all you instructors out there.

What are you looking for in an ADULT beginner before you deem them ready for bogu? Is it mostly a time requirement (i.e. three months to bogu) or are you looking for certain benchmarks (i.e. basic understanding of ki-ken-tai)? If two beginners start around the same time and show up at practice about the same frequency, but one progresses significantly faster than the other, do you graduate the two into bogu at the same time?

Getting the basics down is of course important. But I also feel there has to be a balance in terms of keep a beginner engaged, and not letting them languish in non-bogu classes for too long. What say ye?

[crycleascentyv]

hmmm ineresting. for what Ive seen, giving bogu to people too early always ends in disaster. and taking too long could be bad also...

thats why is a senseis call

[iodigmaFemZem]

for me, depends: time training, skills and so on. but also here in chile... the 50% of the cases depends on money: can you buy a bogu or you need to wait until the club lend you one.

my ''deadline'' to get into bogu.... arround 6 months, just like me... but in my case nobody said to me i can use bogu... i just bought it.

[Paybeskf]

Good beginning basics all around, i.e. footwork, kamai, ki ken tai.

[Gypejeva]

Good beginning basics all around, i.e. footwork, kamai, ki ken tai.

And how many months would you say that usually takes?

[CevepBiageCefm]

ki ken tai ichi, if they cant grasp it without bogu, the task loading that putting bogu on adds will make it even more difficult for them.

[77chawzence]

We look for:

- can execute all basic suburi, fumikomi-men and kiri-kaeshi
- relaxed, generally natural movement
- big swing with extended arms at the end
- coordinated footwork for suburi
- coordinated fumikomi and hit the majority of the time (2/3 in kirikaeshi)
- no issues with being shy or tentative
- no issues with safety with other players (hitting overly hard, overly aggressive etc)
- no other player-specific issues, ie some people have a particular funky way of doing something that needs fixing

This takes typically 3-6 months to accomplish. If its taking longer than 6 months, we need to evaluate whether we would serve this person and the club better by advancing them into bogu or by holding them back.

[Breevereurl]

Speaking as a new student, I'm so happy and glad that my Club and Sensei put us into armour after 12 weeks, any longer would feel too long for me and too soon would be too early.

[Biashpainabix]

- no issues with being shy or tentative
- no issues with safety with other players (hitting overly hard, overly aggressive etc)
- no other player-specific issues, ie some people have a particular funky way of doing something that needs fixing

these 3 pointers are very important. the technical pointes are important, but sometimes you understand faster when you start to being hitted and hit all the time.

[ApporpSothe]

When they can dodge a wrench they're ready for bogu...if you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a shinai...any questions?

[ManituIKOL]

interesting but i think this thread it's lookin to typical kendo stuff: anyway... very funny!

[Starichok]

@ Halcyon.. it varies but normally anywhere from 2-6 months or so. Part of it depending on how often they come to practice (TKI members have the option of going to 4-5 practices a week if they go to all of the dojo. We have a dojo at Duke , UNC (Chapel hill), and NC State.

[EtellaObtaite]

I'm not an instructor, so take this from a newcomers point of view. I think it will vary somewhat by the individual when they are ready to use bogu full time (certainly the sensei's call), but all students should be allowed to wear it fairly early just to see what wearing it is like. Kendo is done in bogu (other then kata), and if students go too long before they can try kendo in bogu, they can become reasonably accomplished in basics and very comfortable without it. Once they are allowed to wear it consistently, some may find the transition to their dislike and won't continue. While its fine to say that that's the way it goes, making someone train for (say) six months before they can really experience kendo could be considered unreasonable. I realize that early exposure is complicated by the lack of familiarity with basic concepts, but I think it might prevent the shock of the radical change that bogu requires over non-bogu training (restricted vision, hearing, mobility, receiving hits, etc.).

My instructors have noted some students who started out very keen, but stopped coming once they were expected to wear bogu. Its a further shame for those students who actually invested in a set of bogu for which they ultimately had no use.

Is this a noted phenomenon anywhere else?

[mikelangr]

I started in March of '08 and was in bugo just before my first shinsa which was in december, I believe I start wearing my bogu around September. I recall being told that it's easier to correct many of the mistakes beginers make without the bogu obstructing their view.

[Poowssnople]

When they can dodge a wrench they're ready for bogu...if you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a shinai...any questions?

I distinctly remember this being pointed out at shinsa

They said after the wrenches we would be expected to begin dodging freeway traffic. (It should be noted that if one studies the top scores from Frogger games all over the world, each one actually belongs to a notable kenshi)

[Goodwin]

There are many factors that affect when someone is ready to practice in bogu but the passage of time isn't as good a gauge as how that time is used. Frequency and consistency will make all the difference. You'll get there faster practicing three or more times a week than doing so once a week. The skill sets Neil described are good bench marks for taking kendo into the bogu phase. When you reach that point is up to your schedule and commitment.

[oneliRafmeene]

making someone train for (say) six months before they can really experience kendo could be considered unreasonable.

My instructors have noted some students who started out very keen, but stopped coming once they were expected to wear bogu. Its a further shame for those students who actually invested in a set of bogu for which they ultimately had no use.

Is this a noted phenomenon anywhere else?

First off, i think everyone is different, and that there is no set time for wearing bogu! i think too early can be a hiderance to many people

My sempai kept me out of bogu for 6 months, by the time i got it i could do a fairly decent big men and good kirikaeshi. i think by being introduced to the way a kendo class worked without bogu, and getting used to cutting on the men, going through, recieving on the shinai etc all made it easier for me to get used to the bogu. 6 months later i passed my shodan, so im fairly confident that this method works!

but, as an instructor now, i know that not everyone is as eager as i was then, and that you sometimes have to make decisions based on individuals! so long as they can do ippon uchi (nidan waza too) and kirikaeshi to a decent level then i think its ok to let them have a go!

i think that happens everywhere!

[Pataacculakp]

I was not advocating that students do any serious training in bogu early on, but that they have an early opportunity to wear it, experience what its like moving around, try some strikes and be allowed to experience getting hit (not keiko, just a demonstration) a few times. Then go back to serious training without it until their instructor deems them ready to begin training in it more or less full time. At least newcomers will have an idea of what is coming and for those that perhaps have the real aversion to it can make the choice before they have spent much time. And for the rest, it might be an additional motivator.

This is not a hypothetical situation (I bought my bogu from one of those beginners who dropped out after one class in bogu), but perhaps its not common enough to worry about (or no reasonable way around it)?

[erepsysoulptnw]

Bogu is when the beginner gets to strike another person in an uncontrolled setting
Accuracy in cutting a target, Kote needs to hit kote.
Tenouchi - control of the cut.
This prevents people getting hurt.
Kiri Kaeshi is an excellent exercise to judge both.

The rest can be learned over the next few decades.

[cargo_brad]

Sheets, your idea presupposes that either people buy their bogu very early or that clubs have loads of rental bogu kicking around for use. Neither is realistic. Around 50% of people quit before ever getting to wear bogu, and 50% quit within a month or so of getting their bogu. Of those that make it to the end of the year, maybe half again show up the next fall. So we see about a 90% overall attrition over one year. This topic has been discussed before, and our clubs numbers are pretty typical. Kendo is simply not everyone's cup of tea, and getting beginners to play dress-up in bogu earlier is unlikely to have any effect.

To me the thing that has the biggest effect is the beginner's sense of belonging within the club, which is also a social institution. We try to include them as much as possible but many people are intimidated by the senior members and instructors even though we're a pretty friendly and casual club. So their chances of success increase greatly if they start with some friends, or if they start with a large group and make some friends within that group. The lowest chance of success is when they start in ones and twos. This is one reason why we limit our club intakes to twice a year, the other being simply our limited resources both in instructors and practice space/time.