[EscaCsamas]

i think everyone knows the significance of the positions. senpo sets the tone, jiho picks up where senpo left off etc etc
but every position is just as important as the other. you want to win them all =P

but when it comes to strategy, captain is not always taisho. stronger players are usually chuken and taisho. in highschool kendo, the kantoku would usually put less experienced players in jiho, because jiho is considered a position with 'least' amount of pressure. if senpo had won, then it wouldnt be too bad if jiho did not. similarly, if senpo had lost, the match would not be a lost cause if jiho lost. it's very often they would put a 2nd or 1st year player in jiho. in college kendo, less experienced players might get the gosho spot just before chuken. either that or jiho.

the player with the most likely chance to score points usually gets the chuken position. i think miyazaki-sensei was chuken in kyoto WKC [correct me if i'm wrong]. and so on and so forth..

anyway, every position is a must-win position

[NarhozNic]

What type of kenshi do you use as senpou, jihou, chuuken, fukushou, taishou?

senpou : quick, agile kenshi with lots of energy.

jihou : kenshi with lots of energy, can be less experienced compared to other members

chuuken : important position where 'win' is requrired. kenshi with experiences and more mentaly stable.

fukushou : experienced kenshi (must be able to count scores)

taishou : captain. must win position

This is a brilliant post, it is the way we do it at the dojo, with one exception, when the opponent is deemed as "unbeatable" (like a very strong sensei), it is up to the weakest member to try and do the best he can (generally trying to tie or lose by only one point), this only works because some of the teams always use the same lineup.

[stastony]

he didn't comment on your description of jiho. you must've hit the jackpot on that one! *bells and lights going off*

[i32I7qyH]

For example, placing very unorthodox style kenshi at chuuken/fukushou position to negate opponent can be good tactics? or not?

I think it is a good tactic especially when taking into account that in a team shiai it's more important that the team wins than any individual winning.

[jq0AFTTC]

Yes, I have heard of the use of alternates, but never actually seen it in use. Except for the WKC anyway.

[Habalinnyf]

my ultimate strategy..
if you're playing on a relatively weaker team..
stack the jiho, fukusho and senpo with your strongest players to beat their weaker ones.. and then throw away your weak players to their stronger ones?
haha

[casinobonusnolimit]

But in team shiai, I think a TIE can be almost as precious as a WIN.
For example, placing very unorthodox style kenshi at chuuken/fukushou position to negate opponent can be good tactics? or not?

i think that's why you often see a jodan/nito kenshi in the chuken position. matches against jodan/nito often end in a tie, possibly more so than chudan vs. chudan. and in a team match, it's arguably more important that each player not lose, though of course it would be ideal if they won.

and by the time you get to the chuken position, you can kind of gauge which way the match is leaning. and even if both your sempo and jiho lose, if your chuken can pull off a tie, there is at least some hope that your fukusho and taisho can fight back.

[Niobaralegra]

In the team tournaments I've been to, we couldnt change the order. I think the main idea of this thread is just to form your team according to your strengths in your own mind and with the competition in mind. We dont change the order of our teams on the fly, we just form them with the best possibilities in mind.

the kyu teams are set from the beggining of the day, yudansha team can use alternates after the first match, thats why we have 7 man yudansha team.. Next month at the Team tournament , you'll see this happen

[EnvellFen]

In the team tournaments I've been to, we couldnt change the order. I think the main idea of this thread is just to form your team according to your strengths in your own mind and with the competition in mind. We dont change the order of our teams on the fly, we just form them with the best possibilities in mind.

[pertikuss]

My sensei here told me that, in tournaments here in Japan, the positions have to be established before you enter a tournament, and are submitted with the roster. For example, if I went in as Senpou on our submitted team roster, then I would go in as senpou the entire tournament.

From what I read above, teams can decide what spots they will enter under--at the tournament? Or can they just change it around once the initial line-up has been sent in?

Or maybe misunderstood my sensei?

even in japan you can change the players or the order before matches. depends on maybe injuries or performance. in a normal situation a team goes in with 5 playing members and 2 subs [7 and 2 if you're in college]. it's common for strong teams to put in their subs for the earlier rounds, of which they are confident to win. once they go into knock-out rounds, they'll revert to their favoured line-up.

[GECEDEANY]

That was interesting. See my notes in red above.

I think you have summed it up pretty well. And to think I thought my post had been a complete waste of time.

[rostpribru]

What type of kenshi do you use as senpou, jihou, chuuken, fukushou, taishou?

senpou : quick, agile kenshi with lots of energy.

jihou : kenshi with lots of energy, can be less experienced compared to other members

chuuken : important position where 'win' is requrired. kenshi with experiences and more mentaly stable.

fukushou : experienced kenshi (must be able to count scores)

taishou : captain. must win position


Importance of position and strength of kenshi might be,
taishou = chuuken ≧　senpou >　fukushou ≧ jihou
what do you think?

[arrismVam]

What type of kenshi do you use as senpou, jihou, chuuken, fukushou, taishou?

I like the idea of 'senpo' being extremely spirited, presenting the team in a very strong manner. The first fighter will voice the team and I think it is the most important position in terms of presentation, youthful kendo is good here. Senpo will encourage his team mates not only with a win, but inspirational fighting spirit as well. This can also make the other side feel outmatched as it is assumed that the players get progressivley better (not always the case though.)

Jiho can be of less skill and I would say that the least skilled player could fight in this position. Same rules though, high spirit and a win would be nice to further off-balance the other team.

Chuken, the drama-queen! This spot will set momentum or lose it, it can win the team bout completely or restore hope to the opposition. As well, this should be the second best player fighting in chuken position.

Fukusho can be just as important as chuken if your team is down 2 fights to 1. This position then has the task of restoring hope. I think mental maturity and experience should fight here. But I would risk my second least skilled player here in hopes the prior three team members did there job.

Taisho, is the final nail, and as such, must be able to rise to any task required. Tie-breaker, or if the desicive bought has already occurred, then taisho displays sportsmanship by giving %110 anyway. This spot is reserved for experienced, mature kenshi (IMO)

[PersonalLoansBank]

As Nodachi said, it all depends on rules of each tournament.

Some taikai only allow 5 pre-registered members, no alternates (may or may not allow order change)
But most taikai (including US National Championships) allow 7 pre-registered members and allowing order change.

[Laqswrnm]

I sometimes think that the ability to add up is one of the most important qualities in a good team shiai player.


Senpoh

Starting scenario.

0/0 - Even. No need to consider what the score is because it will always be the same. Doesn't require any ability to adapt to different situations.

Possible outcomes

1/0 Slight advantage

0/1 Slight defecit

0/0 Even (depends on honsuh)

Winning situations 0
Losing situations 0

Setting the tone of the shiai is almost as important as winning. If you lose but play well you can still lift the rest of the team.

Jihoh

Starting scenarios

1/0 - slight advantage

0/1 - slight disadvantage

0/0 - even (depends on honsuh)

Possible outcomes

2/0 - strong advantage

0/2 - strong disadvantage

1/0 - advantage

0/1 - disadvantage

1/1 or 0/0 - even (depends on honsuh)

Winning situations - 0
Losing situations - 0

Less pressure to set the tone than jihoh. "Solid worker" type position.

Chuken

Starting scenarios

2/0 - strong advantage (can decide victory)

0/2 - strong disadvantage (must not lose)

1/0 - advantage

0/1 - disadvantage

1/1 or 0/0 - even (depends on honsuh)

Possible outcomes

3/0 - Win

2/1 - advantage

1/2 - disadvantage

0/3 - Loss

2/0 - strong advantage

0/2 - strong disadvantage

1/0 - advantage

0/1 - disadvantage

1/1 or 0/0 - even (depends on honsuh)

decide win situations - 1
decide loss situations -1

Can be very important as this is the first position where victory can be decided. There is never the luxury of having already won.

Fukushoh

Starting scenarios

3/0 - Win (playing for fun?)

0/3 - Loss (playing for pride)

2/1 - advantage (can decide victory)

1/2 - disadvantage (must not lose)

2/0 - strong advantage (can decide victory)

0/2 - strong disadvantage (must not lose)

1/0 - advantage (can decide victory)

0/1 - disadvantage (must not lose)

1/1 or 0/0 - even (depends on honsuh)

Possible outcomes

4/0 - win

3/1 - win

1/3 - loss

0/4 - loss

3/0 - win

2/1 - strong advantage

1/2 - strong disadvantage

0/3 - loss

2/0 - win

0/2 - loss

1/0 - strong advantage

0/1 - strong disadvantage

0/0 2/2 1/1 - even (depends on honsuh)

Win situations - 4
Lose situations - 4

decide win situations - 3
decide loss situations -3

Many different meaningful possibilities so you need to be able to count as Kirin-san pointed out.

Interestingly there are more situations where you will be called on to decide victory or loss than for taisho

Taishoh

Starting scenarios

4/0 - win

3/1 - win

1/3 - loss

0/4 - loss

3/0 - win

2/1 - Strong advantage (can decide outcome)

1/2 - strong disadvantage (must not lose)

0/3 - loss

2/0 - win

0/2 - loss

1/0 - strong advantage (can decide victory)

0/1 - strong disadvantage (must not lose)

0/0 2/2 1/1 - even (depends on honsuh - can decide victory or loss)

Possible outcomes

5/0 - win

4/1 - win

3/2 - win

2/3 - loss

1/4 - loss

0/5 - loss

4/0 - win

3/1 - win

1/3 - loss

0/4 - loss

3/0 - win

2/1 - win

1/2 - loss

0/3 - loss

2/0 - win

0/2 - loss

1/0 - win

0/1 - loss

0/0 1/1 2/2 - even (win or loss depending on honsuh, or -> daihyoh-sen if even)

Win situations - 9
Loss situations - 9

Decide win - 2
Decide loss - 2

Funnily enough, on the face of it as taishoh the chances are that the result will already have been decided by the time you have to compete. The pressure is intense though if you have do either play for victory or to avoid defeat.

Daihyou

Starting scenario - even

Possible outcomes - win or loss

MUST WIN

Note that the daihyoh is not necessarily the taishoh. In the case of this year's Australian Championships the Queensland Taishoh was a relatively weak player. When the match went to Daihyou-sen Chuken was the natural choice.

[TudareWQT]

The line up depends on many factors. Do you have 5 capable members or 3 /4 maybe only 2. What are the teams you are facing like. What is the chemistry of the team? Who is a quick starter, who is steady eddy, who doesn't lose. Who raises to the occasion and excels beyond their normal performance. Nope many considerations as a coach.

[singleGirl]

and by the time you get to the chuken position, you can kind of gauge which way the match is leaning. and even if both your sempo and jiho lose, if your chuken can pull off a tie, there is at least some hope that your fukusho and taisho can fight back.

unless you have 5 good players, every dantaisen shiai means you have to adjust the teams a bit. in the case above, does that mean you stack the good players in the chuken to taisho? the problem with that is it puts way too much pressure for them to win. because even if they win [making the score 2-2] they have to consider points, and that gives extra pressure.

but conversely, if you stack senpo to chuken, and put unknown quantities in the back two, if one of the first three gets a tie or a loss, things could get hairy..

[xochex]

interesting post. i think the positions are crucial!

even if a team is stronger individually, the lack of strategy in the order of the kenshi can lead to loss.

for instance see this line up

example one
TEAM-A 5.3.4.1.2
TEAM-B 4.5.3.1.2
winner: team A

example two
TEAM-A 5.3.4.1.2
TEAM-B 3.1.4.2.5
winner: hikiwake

we had a hard time on the last states tournament cause the other team changed strategy on the last minute and caught us with a disadvantaged alignment! my sensei said that as senpo i should go out and get them ippon no matter what so the team could 'rest assured' for the remaining fights...

USUALLY i think his strategy is to put the strongest first and get as much as ippon for a start. the middle men should be strong men in defense, and mostly brave enough to at least pull hikiwakes then leaving a strong man last to 'save the day' just in case. something like 3.4.2.1.5. or 3.5.2.1.4

but in the last tournament we went more like 3.5.4.1.2. i dont know why!! strategy is hard and complicated

[BreeveKambmak]

This is a very good thread Hiro-san. I often wonder about it myself. In my last team shiai, I played as fukushou without really knowing what I have to do besides KILL, KILL and KILL.

According to your description above, we certainly didn't fit the mould. I look forward to hearing what kenshis have to say about the positionings.


Reputation + (but got rejected coz I must spread more reputation around T_T)

[wllsqyuipknczx]

anyway, every position is a must-win position Yeah, that would be an ideal situation

But in team shiai, I think a TIE can be almost as precious as a WIN.
For example, placing very unorthodox style kenshi at chuuken/fukushou position to negate opponent can be good tactics? or not?