[Rasklad]

I'm a Martial Artist and have done things I regret in the past. A lot of these things have made me see a lot of violence so having been around it so much, I know the stress, pain, fear, and suffering it can cause. My question is, although violence will never be wholly good, as either person will suffer in some way or another, is it ever justifiable and if so, when?

If I see a group of kids with obvious bad intentions approaching my girlfriend in an aggressive manner, I will try to talk them down in the short amount of time given but if they keep moving forward, I will without question attack. I'm sure that will bring up other issues and I don't want to ever have to hurt anyone but as we all know, there's always those looking to bring suffering to others and peace won't convince all of them.

So if it is in self defense of yourself or loved ones, is it alright or should I stand by and let someone attack my family as I try to 'talk them down'?

Where is the line? If anyone has any links on further discussion of this topic or it being covered thoroughly, I'd love to have it. Thanks in advance.

[Konidurase]

Violence is never justified. Self defense doesn't even need to be violent if necessary. One could run away or take an attacker down with minimal force. From your aforementioned scenario and past karma, it sounds as if you are looking to vent your aggresion in violent ways, probably fueled by your skills and confidence in martial arts.

I will without question attack.

there's always those looking to bring suffering to others and peace won't convince all of them. I am definitely not judging you Teep, I understand where you are coming from. My feelings for justice and protection of others is also strong. But if we go out of the house expecting trouble or supposing that someone will give us a hard time, then this will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. This is just my own objective point of view. Only in the most extreme cases with no other options and as a last resort to defend a loved one's life would some form of violence be "justified" as an exception to this general rule. But I would not focus on exceptions, focus on the universal dharma of complete non-violence instead.

Take care, and seek to channel your physical energies in positive and constructive ways through work and play.

[neerewed]

Where is the line?

buddha taught: 'karma is intention'. an act that is ordinarily perceived as 'violence' may not necessarily come from a violent intention

[wp6Eg2Fm]

Violence is never justified. Self defense doesn't even need to be violent if necessary. One could run away or take an attacker down with minimal force. From your aforementioned scenario and past karma, it sounds as if you are looking to vent your aggresion in violent ways, probably fueled by your skills and confidence in martial arts.



I am definitely not judging you Teep, I understand where you are coming from. My feelings for justice and protection of others is also strong. But if we go out of the house expecting trouble or supposing that someone will give us a hard time, then this will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. This is just my own objective point of view. Only in the most extreme cases with no other options and as a last resort to defend a loved one's life would some form of violence be "justified" as an exception to this general rule. But I would not focus on exceptions, focus on the universal dharma of complete non-violence instead.

Take care, and seek to channel your physical energies in positive and constructive ways through work and play.

Thank you for the answer. I guess this is where "what you put out there comes back to you" comes in (I've always been told that and never payed much attention). I think my mind is still at more of an aggressive stage because of the past and I view some things, often very ordinary, as potentially threatening or tend to get paranoid when there's absolutely no reason. But thanks for the answers, brothers.

[kjsdiuwe]

Thank you for the answer. I guess this is where "what you put out there comes back to you" comes in (I've always been told that and never payed much attention). I think my mind is still at more of an aggressive stage because of the past and I view some things, often very ordinary, as potentially threatening or tend to get paranoid when there's absolutely no reason. But thanks for the answers, brothers.

It sounds like you already have alot of self knowledge, which is nearly half the battle. You already have the answers, which are found deeper within you. This is our buddha nature revealed after many years, many hours and many breathes and possibly even touched right now like a bolt of lightning!

[ClaudeMarkus]

It sounds like you already have alot of self knowledge, which is nearly half the battle. You already have the answers, which are found deeper within you. This is our buddha nature revealed after many years, many hours and many breathes and possibly even touched right now like a bolt of lightning!

Never thought about it like that but very interesting way to put it. Very true as well.

[occallExtet]

The Buddha said:


You should (also) practice the establishment of mindfulness (by saying)
"I will look after others."

Looking after oneself, one looks after others.
Looking after others, one looks after oneself.

And how does one look after others by looking after oneself?
By practicing (mindfulness), by developing (it), by doing (it) a lot.

And how does one look after oneself by looking after others?
By patience, by non-harming, by loving kindness, by caring (for others).

(Thus) looking after oneself, one looks after others;
and looking after others, one looks after oneself.

SN 47.19

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....019.olen.html

[tipokotap]

I remember hearing about a story from one of the Sutra's, I think part of the Jakkata Tales, so I don't know if those are true Sutras or not, but anyway.

The story goes that in a past life, Buddha was a ship captain whose ship was invaded by a pirate. The Buddha killed the pirate because the pirate would have killed him and everyone on the ship.

The Buddha's karma for this act was good, because his intent was to save lives. Keep in mind, I haven't read the Sutra so this is a third hand account, but I thought it might be interesting in this discussion.

[RjkVwPcV]

The story goes....

I think that since we are ordinary human beings, we can't read minds and see the intentions of others nor what the results of their actions would be.

It would be very unwise to actually take someones life. Much better, rather than trying to harm them, to be able to gently discourage them - or in extreme circumstances restrain them from acting violently instead.

.

[Oberjej]

This is from Chapter 10 "Violence" in the Dhammapada



129. All tremble at violence; all fear death. Putting oneself in the place of another, one should not kill nor cause another to kill.

130. All tremble at violence; life is dear to all. Putting oneself in the place of another, one should not kill nor cause another to kill.

131. One who, while himself seeking happiness, oppresses with violence other beings who also desire happiness, will not attain happiness hereafter.

132. One who, while himself seeking happiness, does not oppress with violence other beings who also desire happiness, will find happiness hereafter.

133. Speak not harshly to anyone, for those thus spoken to might retort. Indeed, angry speech hurts, and retaliation may overtake you.

134. If, like a broken gong, you silence yourself, you have approached Nibbana, for vindictiveness is no longer in you.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit...p.10.budd.html

.

[Cwvnyfsj]

To me the question is, did you intentionaly go out to cause violence; or did you come upon a situation that had no other alternatives to protect another? What would karma prescribe if you came upon a situation, and did nothing to protect another who couldn't protect themselves?

[pIp83Uns]

I have done martial art.Its alright in my opinion to defend oneself and your loved ones.did you come upon a situation that had no other alternatives to protect another? What would karma prescribe if you came upon a situation, and did nothing to protect another who couldn't protect themselves? one thrw

[traithJah]

I am new to the teachings of Buddha but I will give this a shot. The teachings say to keep the middle path, so off to the right we have: get beaten up. Off to the left we have: beat the crap out of the attackers. After a little meditation on the subject I have come to this middle path: You don't have to be violent to defend yourself and others. There are many ways to subdue attackers without hurting them(see Aikido). They are obviously suffering from what I guess is Ignorance, so let them wear themselves out then after the frustration you could provide them with some wisdom. Who knows, that could be the moment that causes them to turn their life around and walk the path to enlightenment, thus turning an enemy into a friend.

[DavidQD]

As Element said in the beginning. It's mostly to due with intention. People may tell you, "It is never okay!", but that would be irrational, illogical.

In the scenario you gave, you are obviously trying everything you can do, and running away won't protect your girlfriend. So use of force to stop them, while she runs away, to protect her, is completely okay.

If it was never okay to use violence, without the intention, simply to help the helpless, many of the people here who are not blonde hair, blue eyes, tall, etc, like me, would probably be working in labor camps, be slaves, or dead, because we would be under the third Reich of Hitler and his offshoot after he died of natural causes.

But hey, if thats what they believe, I really could use a footrub, someone to bathe me, someone to dress me, etc. "And don't you dare forget my drink!"

[drugimpotence]

My 2 cent worth is don't feel guilt about your past, it will just weigh you down. We die and are reborn in every moment, just try to be good right now and now and now. That's all.

I practice martial arts too we should be disciplined enough to defend ourselves without going over the top, hopefully we will never have to use it.

Take care

Gassho
Gary

[valensds]

Just out of curiosity, are there examples of ordained Buddhists who do commit violence to defend themselves or others?
Any action one makes does have intention, if mindfulness is being practiced.


With Metta

[Searmoreibe]

Just out of curiosity, are there examples of ordained Buddhists who do commit violence to defend themselves or others?

I think they had Buddhist warrior monks or Buddhist Samurai in ancient Japan, didn't they ?

[Eugen80]

My question is, although violence will never be wholly good, as either person will suffer in some way or another, is it ever justifiable and if so, when?

By definition, violence is with intentions to harm someone. So it gives the impression of malicious intentions and probably not the best choice of words in your case?

Violence: Behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage... As others said, I don't think self-defense or killing is inherently immoral as it depends on your intentions.

As a side note though, we also have to be careful when justifying defensive warfare because, in history, there have been so many instances where people in power have abused it for political and economic benefits or other agendas. More often than not, defending one’s own kind or nation is just a sugar coating distracting the mind off the real reasons for waging war, which are usually revenge, hatred, racism and dogmatic separatism.

[TudareWQT]

My 2 cent worth is don't feel guilt about your past, it will just weigh you down. We die and are reborn in every moment, just try to be good right now and now and now. That's all.

I agree.

What is most important is that you do not harbor guilt in your mind over past actions. Even if you committed an act with ill-intentions, it is best to abandon feelings of guilt and concentrate on the present.

[evammaUselp]

Just out of curiosity, are there examples of ordained Buddhists who do commit violence to defend themselves or others?

not in original buddhism. the suttas report, specifically for the monks (rather than lay followers):

Monks, even if bandits were to savagely sever you, limb by limb, with a double-handled saw, even then, whoever of you harbors ill will at heart would not be upholding my Teaching. Monks, even in such a situation you should train yourselves thus: 'Neither shall our minds be affected by this, nor for this matter shall we give vent to evil words, but we shall remain full of concern and pity, with a mind of love, and we shall not give in to hatred. On the contrary, we shall live projecting thoughts of universal love to those very persons, making them as well as the whole world the object of our thoughts of universal love — thoughts that have grown great, exalted and measureless. We shall dwell radiating these thoughts which are void of hostility and ill will.' It is in this way, monks, that you should train yourselves.

Monks, if you attend constantly to this admonition on the simile of the saw, do you see any aspects of speech, slight or gross, that you could not endure?

No, lord.

The Simile of the Saw ***