[refdhbgtd]

Hi , im quite new to buddhism so i might seem a little confused as to terms +

references used by buddhists but i was interested in the concept of sunyata as it may

have some connection or similarity to an experience of void i once had.
This void had nothing in it not even thoughts would take shape, it was extremely

dynamic in that it (or my awareness) seemed to search infinately inwardly/outwardly

simultaneously for something (i know not what) untill it reached an intensity when it

seemed to blow itself out + all that remained was an infinate stillness/tranquility +

a feeling of an all pervasive bliss/joy which then gradually diminished + any sort of

awareness or conciousness evaporated with it until there was a deep + profound

unconciousness , unknowingness , like a deep dreamless sleep .
Then there came a gradual reawakening of conciousness into a void state again +

again another (but different) searching of this void , etc,etc. The whole

experience was much more than i have glossed over in this post but i just wanted to

test the water so to speak to see if i am on the wrong track comparing it to sunyata ,

perhaps , but i once heard of sunyata expressed in terms of void which is why i came

to ask this question here.
I would greatly appreciate any direction or help anyone can give me on this topic

as it recieves quite a fearfull or disbelieving reaction from most others.
respectfully, paul

[finasteride]

Welcome Paul !

I don't think your query is in the right place because 'Beyond Belief' is a lively debating forum for more experienced practitioners.

As you've said that you're quite new to Buddhism I think I will move your post to the Beginners forum if you don't mind.

with metta,

Aloka-D

[JMLot]

i was interested in the concept of sunyata as it may

have some connection or similarity to an experience of void i once had

Hello again Paul,

You haven't mentioned the actual context of your experience. Were you meditating - and if so, which meditation method were you using?

.

[AffipgyncDync]

+ any sort of

awareness or conciousness evaporated with it until there was a deep + profound

unconciousness , unknowingness , like a deep dreamless sleep

welcome Paul

sunyata is a state free from the feeling or sense of "self"

so [samadhi] experiences of infinite thoughtless perceptionless consciousness (awareness) can be a 'taste' of sunyata

but unconciousness , unknowingness , like a deep dreamless sleep, is not really sunyata

kind regards

element

[Battwenue]

To me is known that especially teens during puberty or people that suffer from migraine can experience a certain blood pressure loss and lack of oxygen in the brain . No offense...
...they report a sudden black out where there is real nothing...a real void so to say. It even stops them thinking. Thoughts seem to fade away and stop.Then as quick as it has happened gradual some vague light comes back into their brain and everything turns normal again. After that kids are often very tired and scared. Epileptic patients report this too. Its just a few seconds but also can last for ten minutes or more. Some report also a total stillness and tiny waves of sparks,dancing colors or rain bow like waves. Some children stand up abruptly from a chair and collapse for just a few seconds. Then they stand up again and look confused...or smile and are not even aware of this episode.

[Xbcofega]

Hello Aloka-D,
thanks for your replys + apologies for the time it has taken for my

reply. Yes i was meditating , i used a form of total dissociation from all thoughts +

feelings etc arising in consciousness. I dont have a name for it .It is just as

complete a dissociation as i can achieve at any given 'time'.
This experience of void arose out of the most complete dissociation .
To come to the 'point' of void i had to go thru several expansions +

contractions of consciousness b4 i came into formlessness, which was the begining of

the void experience.
These expansions of consciousness can be v fascinating but the self would

contract its cons's from all the various manifestations + return to dissociation .The

self is not this, the self is not that + on + on until formlesness ensued. A natural

extension i would suppose of a complete + utter negation of all thoughts or forms

arising in cons's.
Im not at all sure u will be able to relate to this but i would be

interested in ur thoughts.
respectfully, paul

[flower-buy]

Hi Element,
sorry its taken so long to reply.
yes, i believe there was a complete abscence of self in the final aspect or

quality or condition of void experience.The void experience itself began when i had

come into a state or condition of formlesness after a prolonged period of contractions

+ expansions + an ultimate dissociation from all of these.
I have found there to be several 'states' of awareness, consciousness must

'pass' thru upon entering into void . Initially the self experienced formlesness + a

forgetfulness of any awareness of any forms whatsoever. But there is also a curiosity

or compulsion to explore or probe this internal/external void.
I have written of this somewhere so i will dig it out, it may seem naive

but it sort of puts into words what i can.
It seems to be in an 'area' of cons's that is pitch black, even when its

attention is turned inwards there is the same pitch black emptyness. But it is still a

percieving experiencing quality or principle. Im not at all sure that it is a self as

there is no reflection of a self, no recollection or memory of a self as if it is in a

state of amnesia.
This pitch blackness is all pervasive but the experiencer (self?) is not passive

but feels the urge to search this complete + utter emptyness. It is unknown why or

even what it is searching for, it is just compelled to do so.It is a sort of inherant

(?) curiosity. So it extends its awareness as far inward + outwards (simultaneously)

as it can, which is an intensely curious experience in itself, this inward/outward

motion ocuuring at once (of emptyness,void)
This was the first 'movement' of the experiencer in void space, it seemed

to be space because the emptyness extends (infinately) all around + also internally so

there was still this dimensional dual inner/outer aspect of void .
If there were infinate points in the void + all of these infinate points

simualtaneously searched infinately within + without 'themselves' + were aware of all

other infinate points doing likewise whilst at the same time being the one point from

which all these other infinities arose , then this in some way hints at the

intensity of this search of the void space.
This is the dynamic aspect of the experiencer in void space it is of a

pulsating momentum as it extends ever inward + outward simultaneously, falls back on

itself + re-extends itself again to its infinate. which intensity becomes so

unendurable that it eventually simultaneously 'implodes'/'explodes'at every

concievable 'point' + the internal/external aspects become as one + an experience of

intense bliss joy + tranquility ensues.
There are now no internal/external aspects to the experiencer, all is one

all is void , this is the quiescent void , peaceful blissful void.
This is the last perception of the experiencer, he is one with void.
There are no other qualities to this experience but void , even the

intense bliss + tranquility slowly 'evaporate' + all experience 'stops' or is held in

suspension. Even the experiencing principle (self?) is negated + non-existence or no

experience of any kind is recorded here. Which is why i likened it to a complete +

utter un-conciousness or a deep dreamless sleep state where there is no memory ,

nothing is recorded at all.
I have absolutely no idea or conception of what was or wasnt at this

'point' , nothing was existent not even the experiencing principle , all experience

was either 'suspended' or 'negated'. I have read of the term extinct or extincion

related or accorded to this 'state' + i can understand why but i find these terms to

be too final too desolate + i prefer to use 'suspended' or 'negated' because there is

of course a re-arousal of this experiencer , that which had seemed to go out of

existence slowly 'reawakens' or comes back into (primal?) consciousness.
I hpoe this doesnt seem too garbled or mad to u, nothing i have written

can do justice nor come anywhere near a description of void in fact all that i write

is utter nonsense but the reality of the experience will remain in me, is me + my hope

is that i would return .Some people dream of money some of love or power but my dream

is of void. I honestly dont expect u or anyone else to really understand what i am

still trying to understand myself but every now + again i try to find some reflection

of it in the world at large.
I would be interested in ur thoughts on this matter, please say as u

feel, any critisisms or whatever are more than welcome .
respectfully, paul

[Markdogas]

i used a form of total dissociation from all thoughts +

feelings etc arising in consciousness. I dont have a name for it .It is just as

complete a dissociation as i can achieve at any given 'time'.

Hi Paul,

I'm not really familiar with a Buddhist meditation method such as you're describing and was always told by my teachers not to hold on to 'experiences'.

Have you ever been to offline meditation classes or practiced Samatha, Vipassana or Anapanasati meditation ?

Have you tried the methods in this video series, for example?

[evennyNiz]

Dear Paul3

I understand that the way you are doing now is not ‘Satipatthana’ and not the way to 'Sunyata' or 'Nirvana' as taught by the Buddha.
If I am not wrong, the condition which you felt should be called 'Akincannayatana'.

Prince Siddhartha learnt to do this from an ascetic. But then, the Prince found out that it is not the way to "Nirvana".
Because this condition happened only during the meditation. When he exited from meditation, this condition disappeared.
So, Prince Siddhartha tried other ways until he was enlightened.

I guess that you can enter such confition of void which you mentioned only when you do the meditation.
At the time you do not do the meditation, e.g. eating, drinking, talking, walking, typing or reading etc.
You cannot enter into such condition of void. If it can be in and out, it is not Sunyata or Nirvana.
If it is 'Akincannayatana' as I expect, after you die you will reborn in 'Brahmaloka' (the Brahma world) and will still have to be in the wheel of rebirth.

If my guess is correct, I would suggest you to quit the way of dissociation from all thoughts & feelings, and try doing ‘Satipatthana’ instead. Your way is not to create 'Sati' but is to remove 'Sati'. So, it is not ‘Satipatthana’.
The void has occured because you did not aware of anything, not because you truely understood the four Noble Truth and absolutely put down the self.

Anyway, I accept that going to your stage is not an easy, and I rarely heard about it.
However, it is still not the way. So, be dare to leave it in order to find a more precious thing.

Your respectfully

Ngodngam

[Hpdovoxm]

Hi , Aloka-D,
sorry again that it takes so long to reply but i have been v busy .

yes, as u described, not holding on to experiences, this is exactly what i try

to practice in my complete dissociation, the self is not this (experience), the self

is not that (experience) . Not thoughts or feelings or imaginings or self reflections

or anything that seems to arise in conciousness, + as u probably well know there are

many + sundry types of experience that can arise into cons's to distract it + mainly

we get somewhat caught up in some of the more exotic + beguiling forms of exp' that

may come our way + which will disturb the inner concentration. But to reject all these

+ return to dissociation from them is the way i go in my deeper 'meditations'. Even if

one experiences the self as all incarnations at once , one must dissociate from this

also as not self. There are no expansions or conditions or experiences that cannot be

ultimately dissociated from. + on this ONE occaision i went into formlesness +

void. I stress Once only did i ever enter into this exp' of void. But as i said it is

basic + fundamental to me as a self, an experiencer.
Not to hold on to any experiences whatsoever is to me, ultimately, viod + the

evaporation or 'dissapearance' in 'suspension' or 'negation' of the experiencing

principle (or self) itself. Nonself, nonbeing.no experience.
I do not practice other forms of meditation as this dissociation i have always

intuitively used has been most benificial to me, but thank u for ur video + i will

look at it sometime. I do not even try + meditate on void .
respectfully paul.


Hi ngodngam,
thank u 4 ur most interesting reply, i am not sure of some of the terms u

have used but i will look them up + reply asap .respectfully paul.

[antipenq]

Dear Paul3

Here is an extract of the stages in the experience of non-duality and emptiness by Ken Wilber which you may like to compare with yours.

…….I am aware of my feelings, so I am not my feelings – Who am I? I am aware of my thoughts, so I am not my thoughts – Who am I? Clouds float by in the sky, thoughts float by in the mind, feelings float by in the body – and I am none of those because I can Witness them all.

Moreover, I can doubt that clouds exist, I can doubt that feelings exist, I can doubt that objects of thought exist – but I cannot doubt that the Witness exists in this moment, because the Witness would still be there to witness the doubt.

I am not objects in nature, not feelings in the body, not thoughts in the mind, for I can Witness them all. I am that Witness – a vast, spacious, empty, clear, pure, transparent Openness that impartially notices all that arises, as a mirror spontaneously reflects all its objects…

You can already feel some of this Great Liberation in that, as you rest in the ease of witnessing this moment, you already feel that you are free from the suffocating constriction of mere objects, mere feelings, mere thoughts – they all come and go, but you are that vast, free, empty, open Witness of them all, untouched by their torments and tortures.

This is actually the profound discovery of… the pure divine Self, the formless Witness, causal nothingness, the vast Emptiness in which the entire world arises, stays a bit, and passes. And you are That. You are not the body, not the ego, not nature, not thoughts, not this, not that – you are a vast Emptiness, Freedom, Release, and Liberation.

With this discovery… you are halfway home. You have disidentified from any and all finite objects; you rest as infinite Consciousness. You are free, open, empty, clear, radiant, released, liberated, exalted, drenched in a blissful emptiness that exists prior to space, prior to time, prior to tears and terror, prior to pain and mortality and suffering and death. You have found the great Unborn, the vast Abyss, the unqualifiable Ground of all that is, and all that was, and all that ever shall be.

But why is that only halfway home? Because as you rest in the infinite ease of consciousness, spontaneously aware of all that is arising, there will soon enough come the great catastrophe of Freedom and Fullness: the Witness itself will disappear entirely, and instead of witnessing the sky, you are the sky; instead of touching the earth, you are the earth; instead of hearing the thunder, you are the thunder. You and the entire Kosmos because One Taste – you can drink the Pacific Ocean in a single gulp, hold Mt. Everest in the palm of your hand; supernovas swirl in your heart and the solar system replaces your head…

You are One Taste, the empty mirror that is one with any and all objects that arise in its embrace, a mindlessly vast translucent expanse: infinite, eternal, radiant beyond release. And you… are… That…

So the primary Cartesian dualism – which is simply the dualism between… in here and out there, subject and object, the empty Witness and all things witnessed – is finally undone and overcome in nondual One Taste. Once you actually and fully contact the Witness, then – and only then – can it be transcended into radical Nonduality, and halfway home becomes fully home, here in the ever-present wonder of what is…

And so how do you know that you have finally and really overcome the Cartesian dualism? Very simple: if you really overcome the Cartesian dualism, then you no longer feel that you are on this side of your face looking at the world out there. There is only the world, and you are all of that; you actually feel that you are one with everything that is arising moment to moment. You are not merely on this side of your face looking out there. “In here” and “out there” have become One Taste with a shuddering obviousness and certainty so profound it feels like a five-ton rock just dropped on your head. It is, shall we say, a feeling hard to miss.

At that point, which is actually your ever-present condition, there is no exclusive identity with this particular organism, no constriction of consciousness to the head, a constriction that makes it seem that “you” are in the head looking at the rest of the world out there; there is no binding of attention to the personal bodymind: instead, consciousness is one with all that is arising – a vast, open, transparent, radiant, infinitely Free and infinitely Full expanse that embraces the entire Kosmos, so that every single subject and every single object are erotically united in the Great Embrace of One Taste. You disappear from merely being behind your eyes, and you become the All, you directly and actually feel that your basic identity is everything that is arising moment to moment (just as previously you felt that your identity was with this finite, partial, separate, mortal coil of flesh you call a body). Inside and outside have become One Taste. I tell you, it can happen just like that!
The Nondual Level

"In the previous level, you are so absorbed in the unmanifest dimensions that you might not even notice the manifest world. You are discovering Emptiness, and so you ignore Form. But at the ultimate or nondual level, you integrate the two. You see that Emptiness appears or manifests itself as Form, and that Form has as its essence Emptiness. In more concrete terms, what you all is all things that arise. All manifestation arises, moment by moment, as a play of Emptiness. If the causal was like a radiant moonlit night, this is like a radiant autumn day.

What appear as hard or solid objects “out there” are really transparent and translucent manifestations of your own Being or Isness. They are not obstacles to God, only expressions of God. They are therefore empty in the sense of not being an obstruction or impediment. They are a free expression of the Divine. As the Mahamudra tradition succinctly puts it, “ All is Mind. Mind is Empty. Empty is freely-manifesting. Freely manifesting is self-liberating.

The freedom that you found at the causal level- the freedom of Fullness and Emptiness- that freedom is found to extend to all things, even to this “fallen” world of sin or samsara. Therefore, all things become self-liberated. And this is extraordinary freedom, or absence of restriction, or total release- this clear bright autumn day- this is what you actually experience at this point. But then “experience” is the wrong word all together. This realization is actually of the nonexperiential nature of Spirit. Experiences come and go. They all have a beginning in time, and an end in time. Even subtle experiences come and go. They are all wonderful, glorious, extraordinary. And they come and they go.

But this nondual “state” is not itself another experience. It is simply the opening or clearing in which all experiences arise and fall. It is the bright autumn sky through which the clouds come and go- it is not itself another cloud, another experience, another object, another manifestation. This realization is actually of the utter fruitlessness of experiences, the utter futility of trying to experience release or liberation. All experiences lose their taste entirely- these passing clouds.

You are not the one who experiences liberation; you are the clearing, the opening, the emptiness, in which any experience comes and goes, like reflections on the mirror. And you are the mirror, the mirror mind, and not any experienced reflection. But you are not apart from the reflections, standing back and watching. You are everything that is arising moment to moment. You can swallow the whole cosmos in one gulp, it is so small, and you can taste the sky without moving an inch.

That is why in Zen, it is said that you cannot enter the Great Samadhi: it is actually the opening or clearing that is ever present, and in which all experience- and all manifestation- arises moment to moment. It seems like you “enter” this state, except that once there, you realize that there never was a time this state was not fully present and fully recognized- “ the gateless gate.” And so you deeply understand that you never entered this state; nor did the Buddhas, past or future, ever enter this state.

In Dzogchen, this is the recognition of mind’s true nature. All things, in all worlds, are self-liberated as they arise. All things are like sunlight on the water of a pond. It all shimmers. It is all empty. It is all light. It is all full, and it is all fulfilled. And the world goes on it ordinary way, and nobody notices at all.

Wilber, K. (1999). Stages of Spirituality. Collected Works, vol.4, pg.361-362.

[GotActichwicy]

Here is an extract of the stages in the experience of non-duality and emptiness by Ken Wilber which you may like to compare with yours.

I'm not meaning to be rude -but it seems to me like a hugely melodramatic, long wordy description of simple experiences that he needs to let go of .... and Mahamudra and Dzogchen have no connection to 'God' -and neither does Buddhism.

Who's Ken Wilbur ?

[PristisoliTer]

the self is not this (experience),
the self is not that (experience) .
Not thoughts or feelings or imaginings or self reflections
or anything that seems to arise in conciousness

Hi Paul,
That sounds very good to me and very much in line with Buddha's teachings on anatta - not-self. The falling away of all the things we hold to be self is sunyata.

There are no expansions or conditions or experiences that cannot be
ultimately dissociated from. Buddha taught his disciples to relinquish all fetters, so you are on the right track.

on this ONE occaision i went into formlesness +
void. I stress Once only did i ever enter into this exp' of void. You fluked it, but at least you now know what it feels like and that it is also possible. There is a way back but only practice can get you there.

Not to hold on to any experiences whatsoever is to me, ultimately, void Correct. It's not some metaphysical, ontological reality. It is just that.

It looks like your temperament would suit anapanasati - Buddha's teachings on Jhana (the form and formless states). That'd be my advice.

Namaste
Kris

[Dreaming]

Hi ngodngam,
thank u 4 ur most interesting reply, i am not sure of some of the terms u

have used but i will look them up + reply asap .respectfully paul.


Hi ngodngam,
you are the first person in the 30 or so yrs since i have had this

experience who has pointed me in the right direction let alone really understood what

i was talking about , its a shame i didnt study buddhism b4.
I cannot argue the point u made that it is not Satipatthana + not the

way of Sunyata or Nirvana as taught by Buddha as i had no previous knowledge or

comprehension of such things prior to the experience itself.I only knew of Siddartha

from a book ( of fiction ) i had found on a bus, by Herman Hesse .
It is also a fact that as you stated, for me in the experience , that

it was only experienced whilst in the meditation itself + that i exited from the state

when i exited from the state of meditation. Although there was the curious experience

of an infinate multiplicity of self forms that exploded from the sitting self, in all

concievable directions, when the returning self re-entered the sitting physical form.
So i would agree that this is not enlightenment, + i have never claimed

this + if i ever spoke of it, it was just as an experience i once had + one i hope i

can perhaps come close to again one day. And most people would pass it off as one of

my more extreme eccentricities, u see i didnt talk to many Buddhists + even when i did

come into contact with them i was not yet even able to formulate the right questions

ha,ha.
As i said ngodngam, u are the first person ever to inform me of my own

experience + u have my deepest thanks + eternal gratitude.
My experience is not then Sunyata or Nirvana as u said, as it was only

in the meditative state itself + not out of it . So i understand what u mean by being

'in' it or 'out' of it , + which state of full realisation both internally or

externally ( of the meditative state )+ whilst eating , talking drinking, walking, is

Sunyata or Nirvana , which Siddartha attained + taught. Is this the right

interpretation?
From a quick reading of the Jhanas i think i might have reached the

state of neither perception or non perception in the state i described when even the

internal + external perception of the self was equalised + what i termed as quiescsent

void was entered into, where there was no perception of anything not even internal or

external aspects of the self, all was void + complete emtyness. there remained the

perciever (self) or as i had called it , the experiencing principle but there were

absolutely no distinctions to be made from emptyness, all other perceptual qualities

had gone. Which then led to the cessation or non-experience or non-being of the self

of which i could not make any comment other than this, as if it had passed out of

existence completely.
I i understand that my way of dissociation is not Satipatthana,

which seems of my v brief reading of it just now, to be intensely analytical + of many

levels of attainment + understanding, which on an overview of them, i can understand

why they are as they are but would take a lot more reading 4 me to fully understand.
Your suggestion 4 me to quit dissociation from all thoughts +

feelings because they remove 'Sati' + dont create 'Sati' is something i dont fully

comprehend right now, perhaps if u could find the time to enlighten me further i would

appreciate it.
You are entirely right , i do not understand the four Noble Truths +

have not absolutely put down the self, though i know i must try + achieve this state

or condition whilst outside of the meditative state + in everyday life, which is what

i strive for. And in connection with this i would like to ask ur advice on a state or

condition of consciousness i came into which i call a dual wakeing/dreaming state of

cons's.
This state was a sort of precurser to the void states, in that i believe

that if i did not come into this state prior to the void states then i dont think i

would have been able to have entered into the void states subsequently.
It came after about 3 months of semi isolation + a lack of all but 3-4

hours sleep a night , readings of vairious mystical literature + practice of intuitve

meditative states. There were many unusual + some quite frightening altered states of

cons's to contend with but eventually after about 3 months my dreaming + usual wakeing

consiousness's seemed to 'fuse' + become one, a more complete awareness. This dual

cons's lasted about 3 days + many abilities + experiences could be held simultaneously

in attention + acted upon. I could either 'see' another persons dreams or otherworldly

excursions whilst 'seeing' vistas of other civilisations around me or 'see' a friend

coming roud to visit b4 they arrived , i could go into a meditative state + still

retain (an extended) awareness of the external world etc,etc. i dont think i slept in

the usual sense in that my awareness seemed continous thru both wakeing + dreaming ,

they were simultaneous.
Is there a state of cons's described in the Buddhist texts that might in

some way be similar to this experience? i would be v interested to know of it.
Thank u kindly 4 putting me straight on some of these issues i have struggled

with over the years, ur reply has been most informative + fruitful to me + i look

forward to hear of any other comments or guidance u can give ,
greatest of respect, paul

PS , in a sense these jhanas are of no use at all even as an experience or that they might give a 'good' incarnation because i think as u were trying to point out, they are not a continual experience + only give one a tantalising glimpse of the real thing.

[chppjdf]

Hi Paul,

I hope this doesn't offend you in any way, but can I ask if you were taking recreational drugs/hallucinogenics when having the experiences you've mentioned?

with kind wishes,

A-D

[DouseAuthott]

Hi Kris,
absolutely right i fluked it ,i'd had several altered states + OOB experiences

b4 the void but only one, of a dual wakeing/dreaming consciousness (i have loosely

described to ngodngam) which i see as some sort of precurser to the void states + the

one which i would like to return to help me on my way back (to void,nonself).
U said 'You fluked it, but at least you now know what it feels like and

that it is also possible. There is a way back but only practice can get you there.'
i say , Yep, a real pain in the ass this practice bit, but i agree, it must be done.i must at least try.
respectfully, paul

[ThomasMannfanny]

Dear Paul 3

Your are welcome. 'Akincannayatana' means realm of nothingness. The Buddha has mentioned these things as well. And there are more. For example, realm of infinite space (Akasanancayatana), realm of infinite consciousness (Vinnanancayatana), realm of nothingness (Akincannayatana), or realm of neither perception nor non-perception (Nevasannanasannayatana).

As you have practiced by dissociation, you can ignore things, more and more. Until at one stage, you can ignore so many things and enter into realm of nothingness. But it is still not the way, because there still are things right there, but you just ignore them. For example, a deer staying closed to tigers, such deer practices to close its eyes and its mind. Until one day, it says that there are no tigers near it. But, in fact, the tigers are still there and still closed to it, the deer just does not open eyes and mind to see it.

What you did until this stage was not easy. You wrote for quite long and I need time to read and understand them. However, I slept for only few hours last night and had low fever today. I will come back to share comments later. In the meantime, I can share what I learnt from a respectful monk as follows:

Before the Buddha’s era, there are three groups of persons who search and do for happiness as follows:

First Group
They create happiness by doing whatever they desire. If they are hungry, they eat. If they feel bored, they listen to music or go travel or talk to friends, etc. This group includes animals as well. For example, if a dog is hungry, it eats and then is happy.

Second Group
This group is smarter than the first group. They think that as long as we rely our happiness to something outside which are out of control, we will never find the true happiness. So, they try to control their desire. They control their desire so that they do not need anything. They do good things and do not do bad things. They do donations and sacrifice things.

Third Group
This group is smarter than the second group. They think that as long as we still associate with or feel with someone or something, we will never find the true happiness. This is because if we associate with or feel with someone or something, we can feel good or bad, and happy or unhappy. So, they practice to feel clam, silence and nothing, i.e. not to feel other things. (Your practice of dissociation is within this third group.)

That’s it. Before the Buddha’s era, there are only these three groups. Once the Buddha was enlightened, the Buddha taught that these three groups misunderstood and cannot find the true happiness because they do not know. They do not know what? They do not know the four noble truths. The first truth is ‘suffering’ (Dukkha). (I cannot explain the whole four noble truths within this short time and with my remaining energy tonight. But will try some.)

If we consider our body and mind, we will see that both are subject to the three Characteristics Common to All Conditioned Things ( ‘Samannalakkhana’), i.e. unstable (‘Anicca’), suffering (‘Dukkha’), and notself (‘Annatta’). Please see my explanation on the three Characteristics Common to All Conditioned Things on body and mind in this below thread (in comments 16 and 21).

http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries...rvation./page2

As the truth is that our body and mind are ‘suffering’ by nature, how could these three groups make them to be happy. If body and mind are not self, how could they make them happy?

The way to the true happiness is the Four ‘Satipatthana’ so that we will know the four noble truths. If our body and mind are not self, and we truly accept this, we will not hold both. For example, would anyone view that your watch is yourself? No, we would view that our watch is not and separated from ourselves. If we view and truly accept that our body and mind are not and separated from ourselves, then there are still sufferings in this world, but there is no one to take those sufferings. (This paragraph would be very or too difficult to understand at this stage.)

What you did is dissociation from other things. Why you did it? Because you wanted to be happy, you did not want to be unhappy, and the dissociation made you happy. So, what you did was for ‘self’. Although you do this to the end until you die, you still have ‘self’ to hold. As you have self, you will reborn in this wheel of birth and can be suffering.

Apart from the above, what I can tell you is that you should try doing ‘Satipatthana’ which I already explained some in the above mentioned thread (in comments 16 and 21). Doing mediation does not mean that such is always Buddhism. (I will explain this later.)

I slept for only 3 hours yesterday as had much work to do last week and this week and cannot consider anything difficult now. Anyway, I will come back to finish reading your comments to see whether I can share anything more.

Lastly, when I enter into Dhamma web boards, I always feel thankful to the webmasters as they gave chances and did much merit and many helps to so many people. In this case, you may probably thank to A-D and other webmasters.

[Yb4bulVR]

Hi Paul,

I hope this doesn't offend you in any way, but can I ask if you were taking recreational drugs/hallucinogenics when having the experiences you've mentioned?

with kind wishes,

A-D

Hi A-D ,ur question does not offend me, nor it does not embarass me to say that i

used LSD in the void experience . 3 normal doses of a good quality LSD were initially

ingested + after a while when the 'medicine' is ready to be passed from the body, as

urine, this is then drunk , so that the larger portion of the drug/medicine that is

expelled from the body as a 'poison', is then reingested but with the cellular imprint

of the practitioner , upon it. Other methods may be observed at this 'point' but i

will not say. There is a prior period of asana preparation + of internal 'cleansing'

etc b4 the practitioner is ready to ingest the medicine. If the practitioner shows any

signs of physical or emotional distress b4 it is administered , it will not be given.

These are the conditions of an esoteric form of yoga which i am not at liberty to talk

futher of. In fact it would be a good idea to wipe this post (as u see fit) because i

would in no way wish 4 this to be missunderstood or misused by anyone who might read

it. This form of 'yoga' produces most powerful effects in the practitioner + i

have known of those who have suffered greatly because of it.I would not normally speak

of it nor advise anyone to attempt this sort of thing. But it is important that u know

of this + in some way, how i used these drugs, this medicine.
The wakeing/dreaming consciousness which i see as the precurser to the void

experience was done thru dogged determination (no drugs) over a 3 month period until

the self was gradually fused with the inner self or dreaming self, but with this other

esoteric yoga the doors of the self + perception are burst open until the deeper inner

experiences can be easily reached + then used by the practitioner to probe even

deeper. But many fall foul of this 'bursting' thru + get lost along the way. It can

destroy or completely mess up an ego. i have 'seen' + experienced 'things' via this

method that it may not have been proper or good 4 me to have come into but that was 4

me to deal with + luckily i escaped relatively unscathed . There are so called

'demonic' regions into which one may inadvertantly 'fall' etc, etc.
I have not used this method in many years nor do i intend to, there are other ways.
Be that as it may, my final summation is that the experience gained thru such

methods in no way differs from the quality of experience gained by other safer

methods. It is only used as a device to cut thru the 'outer' layers of the self.The

experience i believe remains the same tho it has with it , the seeds of forgetfulness

+ as are most meditative experiences, confined to the experience itself. It is a most

dangerous but legitimate method of gaining knowledge of the inner self. i was lucky +

well guided. these were most certainly not drugs used in a recreational manner.
repectfully, paul

[thighikergove]

That makes getting back there a bit more of a drag. The drugs got you there the 1st time but you don't know 'exactly' how - like a passenger. You need to learn the pathway yourself. Still, you now know there's a valid destination - many do not.

[IrrettelatWet]

Hi srivijaya, I agree + somewhat disagree with ur post in that i was a fairly good

intermediate in hatha yoga, i'd also done some quite protracted 'meditations' ie my 3

month stint to gain dual wakeing/dreaming consciousness + come into various other

altered states + OOB experiences , some with some without drugs so i had a reasonable

knowledge + experience of these 'things'. The void experience came after some other

v definate expansions of consciousness or was a part of a larger experience . So i

think u are right to say that i dont know exactly how i got there, like a passenger

but i would say that there are many signposts along the way that i would recognise as

i was quite an observant 'passenger' + could remember much of the way. respectfully,

paul