[Gooracouppy]

Hi everyone
Can someone help me understand a bit more about cyclic existence in a basic way please?
This is how I am understanding the thoughts/facts around cyclic existence... Ok so we are reborn (preferably with a human rebirth) and in this 'form' we suffer from the moment we are born.....and I get that part but what confuses me is...
from what I hear in some teachings etc is that we want to escape cyclic existence...... so at first I assumed "ok so maybe from now until i die I need to strive to NOT be reborn"... but where do i go that is going to benefit others if the dharma is about freeing all sentient beings from suffering? and how come we have great Lamas still on this earth if we should be striving to escape cyclic existence? so is cyclic existence about being reborn with a good human rebirth and not suffering? if so, then how can you not suffer when there are so many people suffering? Isn't it better to come back to suffering but help people?
So in a nutshell.... does someone have to die and not exist again to be free of cyclic existence?
Sorry if this is a bit scattered/confusing but its how I am seeing it...and being confused by it

[KinicsBonee]

Hi peace and daisies and a warm welcome to the group !

"Samsara" basically means wandering round in circles. This is something that most of us do in our present lifetime through ignorance, when we repeat conflicting emotions,thoughts,reactions and habits again and again, without understanding what's happening to us.

We're always searching for new experiences of one kind or another and resisting change when things don't always turn out as we want them to. This dissatisfaction and stress is what is known as "suffering" or dukkha.

The idea of a Dhamma practitioner 'freeing all sentient beings from suffering' is an impossibly idealistic wish which is prominent in Tibetan Buddhism but is not necessarily outlined in exactly the same way in other Buddhist traditions. First we have to deal with our own misperceptions and free ourselves, before we can begin to help others to free themselves.

My opinion is that you should just focus on this life to begin with, and on understanding the Buddha's core teachings of The Four Noble Truths , before you start worrying about different lives and freeing others.

There's an essay on the 4 Noble Truths by Tamara Engle in the Beginners forum . Also, one of our members - Element - has made a video in which he's talking about the First Noble Truth that there is dukkha(suffering). If you'd like to watch it, you can find it in the Members Only sub-forum of the Tea Room.


With kind wishes,

Aloka-D

[vladekad]

Welcome to the forum peace and daisies!

I think Aloka has explained well enough about cyclic existence and the idea of being into samsara.

I like this quote so to make us reflect about it:

1. I walk down the street,
there is a deep hole in the sidewalk
I fall in. I am lost... I am hopeless
It isn't my fault...
I takes forever to find a way out.

2. I walk down the same street
there is a deep hole in the sidewalk
I pretend I don't see,
I fall in again.
I can't believe I am in the same place.
But it is not my fault,
It still takes a long time to go out.

3. I walk down the same street
There is a deep whole in the sidewalk,
I see it is there,
I still fall in... it is a habit!
My eyes are open
I know where I am
It is my fault,
I get out immediately.

4. I walk down the street,
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk
I walk around it.

5. I walk down the street.

"Autobiography in Five Chapters", by Portia Nelson, quoted by Sogyal Rimpoche in "Tibetan Book of Living and Dying", p.31 or in the Buddha's Words so to illustrate how samsara and cycle existence are both related because our ignorance about our mental states:

1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.

Dhammapada; the pairs: vv 1 and 2.

[stunnyravytal]

Sorry if this is a bit scattered/confusing but its how I am seeing it...and being confused by it

Welcome P & D

Sure, what you have posted certainly represents the various kinds of views and teachings found in the different and varied schools of Buddhism about samsara.

As these views represent the different opinions and teachings of different groups and sects, one is inevitably bound to get confused.

I can only suggest you examine and ask yourself what are your personal goals in relation to Buddhism and then choose the kind of teaching or school that suits your personal goals.

All the best

[Glamyclitlemi]

[...]examine and ask yourself what are your personal goals in relation to Buddhism and then choose...

That is nice Element,

Some are looking for a road-map to an everlasting [wandering] soul, others for the understanding, cessation and deliverance from Dukkha.

[Japakefrope]

Hi again - thanks everyone for the welcome and the advice/words. I'm glad I stumbled across this website
ok so cyclic existence is caused by being reborn into this life or other realms due to our previous karmas - karmas that come about through our desires, grasping ignorance etc etc. So to be free from all these 'dissatisfactions' does one not die as such but instead come back and have a state of mind where we are not attached to the notion of 'i' or 'mine' etc etc
Thanks everyone

[dumadegg]

Hi Peace (may I call you that for short?)

Not scattered or confusing at all. I have been pondering on exactly the same questions for a while now!

[polleroy]

Can someone help me understand a bit more about cyclic existence in a basic way please?

Understanding may become clearer if we have a clearer understanding of the terms and meanings used.

Ok so we are reborn ...and in this 'form' we suffer from the moment we are born.....
from what I hear in some teachings etc is that we want to escape cyclic existence.

It might be more accurate to say that what we experience is constant striving, due to a perception of a permanent sense of "me". Since no actual "me" can be shown to exist, then this is regarded as a type of confusion, and that we naturally want to experience clarity, which is the opposite of, or freedom from confusion.

...but where do i go that is going to benefit others if the dharma is about freeing all sentient beings from suffering? and how come we have great Lamas still on this earth if we should be striving to escape cyclic existence?

Lamas say that great teachers choose to postpone passing into nirvana, and instead keep coming back in order to benefit beings. i mean, that's the 'official' story. Not all Buddhists go along with it.

how can you not suffer when there are so many people suffering?

It is painful to see so much suffering and confusion and craziness in the world. But, it's sort of like when a parent wants to calm a crying baby. You can see their misery, and you want it to end, but you do not directly experience their suffering. So, there is a degree of separation in that sense.

In terms of suffering from the suffering of the world, if you are not attached to a sense of "me" then there is no "me" that suffers from it. There might be real sadness over various situations, but one does not feel personally victimized or oppressed by this feeling. It's just a feeling. On the contrary, as you expand your sense of compassion, wishing to take on all suffering, your sense of "me" diminishes. This sounds like self-torture but it is actually liberating.

does someone have to die and not exist again to be free of cyclic existence?

This assumes that there is a 'someone'. If you can let go of that, then that is the same as being free of cyclic existence.

Here is a story. There are two Halloween pumpkins, one carved with a mean face and one carved with a frightened face. It is the day after Halloween, and they are discussing what they will come back as in their next life. The mean pumpkin worries that since he has always been mean, he will have a terrible rebirth and the scared pumpkin is just worrying about all the terrible possibilities. They go on and on and on until they have rotted away and been eaten by animals. Meanwhile, the rain and the sun and the earth are also having a chat. the rain says, "it was a lot of fun coming together as pumpkins again this year. what shall we do next?"

The point of this story is that we see our reality as the whole of everything based on our very limited viewpoints, our very short time as living beings (compared to, for example, the age of the universe) and so we project a kind of reality which is not entirely accurate. We experience this 'human realm' as just that. Sometimes we experience our perception (and a lot of it really comes down to how we "experience our perceptions") as hell or heaven or whatever, which is cyclic existence. So, just as the pumpkins thought that they were dealing with things that only existed in their context, it turns out that they were really just part of something else that was going on.

I don't know if this was helpful. I hope it was fun.

[pKgGpUlF]

Hi peace,

This is another very inspiring quote in Buddha's Words:

An ocean of tears

"Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — or the water in the four great oceans?... This is the greater: the tears you have shed...

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.

"Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."

— SN 15.3
A beautiful one too:

This precious human birth

"Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there. A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east. A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north. And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years. Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?"

"It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole."

"It's likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It's likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. Now, this human state has been obtained. A Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, has arisen in the world. A doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world.

"Therefore your duty is the contemplation: 'This is stress...This is the origination of stress...This is the cessation of stress...This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"

— SN 56.48
And finally full of deep insight and compelling you to meditate:

Why do we wander in samsara?

"It's because of not understanding and not penetrating four things that we have wandered & transmigrated on such a long, long time, you & I. Which four?

"It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble virtue that we have wandered & transmigrated on such a long, long time, you & I.

"It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble concentration that we have wandered & transmigrated on such a long, long time, you & I.

"It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble discernment that we have wandered & transmigrated on such a long, long time, you & I.

"It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble release that we have wandered & transmigrated on such a long, long time, you & I.

"But when noble virtue is understood & penetrated, when noble concentration... noble discernment... noble release is understood & penetrated, then craving for becoming is destroyed, the guide to becoming (craving & attachment) is ended, there is now no further becoming."
— AN 4.1
I really like so much those three teachings...

PS: Peace, just try not to read it intellectually... do not argue with it, let ti do its work carefully in you; it is highly metaphorically so let the teaching take you beyond the phrases, by itself, in silence to understand it. It is not for philosophical entanglements but for opening your insight. Drop all you have read before and make room for the Buddhas words.

Its important to consider that all this teachings are are workable in the here and now.

[Infellgedq]

Hello again peace and daisies,

Continuing from my post #7, you'll get various kinds of advice from us here, because we are a mixed tradition group. Additionally, if you put words or phrases into our search facility you'll find a variety of different topics discussed throughout the forums on the website, including topics about karma and rebirth.

However,to begin with I highly recommend you just have a read of the text and listen along to the audio if possible - to "What is Buddhism" which is pinned in our Beginners Forum. It it might help with some of your questions and will give you some basics to work on.

Here it is:

http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries...at-is-Buddhism


With kind wishes,

A-D

[ZZtop]

Thanks everyone!!! You wont believe how much this has helped me already I go to a local buddhist centre and have done so off and on for a few years now... it is Tibetan buddhism - mahayana practice. I'm really enjoying it but just lately I got so confused because of the way the translator was translating - its almost like we need a translator for the translator (not disrespect to him of course) so how he was translating had me thinking all the stuff mentioned above - so I was beginning to think there was something wrong with me. So it has been a great help reading all this stuff... and it sinking in, without me feeling like an absolute dummy

[daguy]

'It is painful to see so much suffering and confusion and craziness in the world. But, it's sort of like when a parent wants to calm a crying baby. You can see their misery, and you want it to end, but you do not directly experience their suffering. So, there is a degree of separation in that sense.'

Like the way this is put THANK YOU

'In terms of suffering from the suffering of the world, if you are not attached to a sense of "me" then there is no "me" that suffers from it. There might be real sadness over various situations, but one does not feel personally victimized or oppressed by this feeling. It's just a feeling. On the contrary, as you expand your sense of compassion, wishing to take on all suffering, your sense of "me" diminishes. This sounds like self-torture but it is actually liberating.'

This answered so much for me - the way you have put it here made something click!

[Appenianags]

Thanks everyone!!! You wont believe how much this has helped me already I go to a local buddhist centre and have done so off and on for a few years now... it is Tibetan buddhism - mahayana practice. I'm really enjoying it but just lately I got so confused because of the way the translator was translating - its almost like we need a translator for the translator (not disrespect to him of course) so how he was translating had me thinking all the stuff mentioned above - so I was beginning to think there was something wrong with me. So it has been a great help reading all this stuff... and it sinking in, without me feeling like an absolute dummy

Hi P & D,

Thanks for letting us know that you're already attending an offline Tibetan centre.

I'm really glad you're finding it helpful here.

If you're not a beginner to Buddhism, you can always ask questions or start topics in one of our other forums instead of this one.

kind wishes,

A-D

[cakaeroryrere]

...as you expand your sense of compassion, wishing to take on all suffering, your sense of "me" diminishes. This sounds like self-torture but it is actually liberating.

This answered so much for me - the way you have put it here made something click!

I have heard the idea of the bodhisattva, in the Mahayana context, likened to that of a bus driver whose bus has an infinite number of seats, and who welcomes everyone to get on board. All the riders have problems, many moan or complain or fight or whatever, but this fact does not actually distract the driver of the bus.

[orgagsUpsepsy]

I have heard the idea of the bodhisattva, in the Mahayana context, likened to that of a bus driver whose bus has an infinite number of seats, and who welcomes everyone to get on board. All the riders have problems, many moan or complain or fight or whatever, but this fact does not actually distract the driver of the bus.

It takes a lot of driving lessons and regular practice before one can safely transport a busload of passengers to their destination, however!

Anyway, as Peace and Daisies isn't a beginner, can I humbly suggest that further Mahayana discussion takes place in the Mahayana forum, or if its for everyone else to discuss too, in General Buddhist discussions.

Thanks

[Gremlinn]

as Peace and Daisies isn't a beginner,[...]

Oh... I thought she was.

[Andrius]

Oh... I thought she was.

Check post #11, Kaarine dear.

[margoaroyo]

Check post #11, Kaarine dear.

OK... It happened that I left the thread after first fojiao2's answer. Thanks Aloka...

[iouiyyut]

I had to have a little giggle about me not being a beginner thanks for the compliment but even though I have been getting teachings offline etc I still consider myself a beginner. There is still so much I dont 'get' about many things and sometimes I dont feel confident to ask questions when i'm at teachings because there are so many people who seem to know so much and I feel like a dummy in comparison.
This is why I enjoy this website so much and there isn't one person here that has made me feel silly for asking questions.

[JANALA]

I had to have a little giggle about me not being a beginner thanks for the compliment but even though I have been getting teachings offline etc I still consider myself a beginner. There is still so much I dont 'get' about many things and sometimes I dont feel confident to ask questions when i'm at teachings because there are so many people who seem to know so much and I feel like a dummy in comparison.
This is why I enjoy this website so much and there isn't one person here that has made me feel silly for asking questions.

Its good to hear that you feel comfortable here, Peace and Daisies!

I wouldn't worry too much about others seeming to know more than you. What's important is one's own practice and inner development.

.