[Kimaamighed]

I have a feeling everything im about to say/ask is merely because I have not done enough research on Karma, and therefore do not fully understand it, so if you can help me better wrap my mind around Karma (logically) I would greatly appreciate it. So far, Karma is the only thing I am having trouble understanding.

From what I understand about Karma,
-All actions/intentions/etc. reap benefits/consequences (this is karma).
-Everything that happens to you (good or bad) is a result of Karma
-Buddhists do not believe in 'luck', everything is a result of something else. (therefore there is no 'randomness'? )
-There is no self or inherent existence, yet our own actions result in our own karma (that follow ‘us’ from life to life)
-Karma is balanced/fair/equal (throughout all of time you will receive negative results for all ‘bad karma’ you have accumulated, and vise-versa)

These things don't really make 'logical' sense to me... (or contradict my above understanding of what I know what about Karma so far...)

-How can karma follow us as individuals if none of us have inherent self-existence?
-How can natural events (such as death from earthquake/tsunami/storm/etc.) be results of our human intentions/actions (IE How can natural events be the results of karma)
-What even is Karma… Is it some kind of energy? How can it follow us around and reap results on our lives if it is not ‘something’?
-Randomness must exist, since ‘free-thinking’ humans exist. (I can choose to go out on the streets and start pushing or hugging ‘random’ people for no reason. Can it really be argued that those people are reaping the results of previous past karma?)
-If randomness exists, how could Karma be fair/balanced/equal? Throughout the course of all human time, across thousands of lives lived (good and bad), will everyone truly receive equal results of good and bad events across those lives based on their actions/intentions?
-Natural events that have casues and conditions outside human control cannot possibly be the results of karma. Therefore bad events (untimely deaths) must occur to undeserving humans all the time.

In Conclusion:

How can we really say that every 'bad event' in our lifetimes is a result of past karma? (is there any logical reason or evidence to support this belief?)
How can we even argue that karma even exists? (when natural events completely out of our control happen all the time, sometimes even effecting thousands of people at a time)

[Afigenatjola]

-All actions/intentions/etc. reap benefits/consequences (this is karma). Intentinal action has a consequence, If I choose to steal, that has a consequence

-Everything that happens to you (good or bad) is a result of Karma This is Hindu/Jain metaphysical Kamma. The Buddhas redefined Kamma in terms of intentional action in the mind and the effects on the mind. He taught that somethings can happen due to other causes, for example lightening striking a person is just an act of nature, no Kamma involved in it

-Buddhists do not believe in 'luck', everything is a result of something else. (therefore there is no 'randomness'? ) Yes but not everything is the result of intentional action

-There is no self or inherent existence, yet our own actions result in our own karma (that follow ‘us’ from life to life) The subject of rebirth is difficult to address here, I would recommend you read one of the rebirth threads on this forum first and then, if you dont find the answer you seek in relation to this, ask again



These things don't really make 'logical' sense to me... (or contradict my above understanding of what I know what about Karma so far...)

-How can karma follow us as individuals if none of us have inherent self-existence? It doesnt follow us, its a process. The Buddha taught that there is anatta, not self. However the sense of self, or ego-consciousness, does arise. This happens when there is clinging, for example cling to a phone and its "my" phone, a "self" has been born. When this "self" has been born (whenever there is clinging) the result of a past intentional action will come to be

-How can natural events (such as death from earthquake/tsunami/storm/etc.) be results of our human intentions/actions (IE How can natural events be the results of karma) They are not, this is a Hindu/Jain metaphysical Kamma that gets confused with Buddha (dont worry, a lot of Buddhists make this mistake as well)

-What even is Karma… Is it some kind of energy? How can it follow us around and reap results on our lives if it is not ‘something’? Its a mental process

-Randomness must exist, since ‘free-thinking’ humans exist. (I can choose to go out on the streets and start pushing or hugging ‘random’ people for no reason. Can it really be argued that those people are reaping the results of previous past karma?) Can of worms has been opened , difficult question which I cant answer right now due to time constraints, Will get back to you






How can we really say that every 'bad event' in our lifetimes is a result of past karma? (is there any logical reason or evidence to support this belief?) Buddha didnt say "bad" events were

How can we even argue that karma even exists? (when natural events completely out of our control happen all the time, sometimes even effecting thousands of people at a time) Its easy to see how intentional action has a result. If I choose to drink "I" am born into the insanity of drunkness




I have a feeling everything im about to say/ask is merely because I have not done enough research on Karma, and therefore do not fully understand it, so if you can help me better wrap my mind around Karma (logically) I would greatly appreciate it. So far, Karma is the only thing I am having trouble understanding. I would strongly recommend reading these

http://das-buddhistische-haus.de/pag...n_Buddhism.pdf

and

http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/kamma.htm


Hope that was helpful

[DiBellaBam]

Thanks clw_uk. That actually cleared up a lot of misconceptions I had, and now a lot of it makes a lot more sense to me.

...Now I need to go read up more on the rebirth part lol.
...And avoid lightning no matter how good I am .

[Lotyqnag]

Thanks clw_uk. That actually cleared up a lot of misconceptions I had, and now a lot of it makes a lot more sense to me. Happy to help

...Now I need to go read up more on the rebirth part lol.
...And avoid lightning no matter how good I am Always a good idea lol

[FelikTen]

Upon reading the link provided on Karma from buddhanet.net I have a much greater understanding of Karma now. Thank you for providing that.

I now have come to a side-thought about 'true good intention', and that I cannot see how it truly exists...

For example:
-Is the desire to be good and generate good karma not a selfish desire to avoid bad karma (or selfish desire to obtain happiness)?
-Is the desire to help others or have good intentions also not directly related to a selfish desire understanding that pain causes suffering, and wanting to avoid that suffering for yourself or others.
-Is happiness and love in general not just an emotional state?

Those thoughts lead me to believe that neutrality to everything is the result of true selflessness (if selflessness is even possible for a human to aquire). Obviously Buddha (and other enlightened people) believe being 'good' and showing love to others is how people should live their lives...

So my question is why? Even if someone truly accepts selflessness and not-self fully, are all of their actions/intentions/etc still not directly results of emotional wants? (want for happiness or dissatisfaction of suffering)?

[Olympicdreams]

neutrality to everything

I'm serious when I say that, it seems to me, that the only way to be neutral to everything is to be dead or to be anencephalic. I don't mean to be cynical here - I just can't go along with an idea that would be impossible for me. The whole of life involves judgements about the world we live in. If one were truly neutral to everything how would making a choice be possible unless the toss of a coin (i,e, random events) is used as the mechanism.

[Boripiomi]

Is the desire to be good and generate good karma not a selfish desire to avoid bad karma (or selfish desire to obtain happiness)?

Depends on the motivation. Why does one want to do this? To avoid one's own pain & suffering... or to alleviate another;s?

-Is the desire to help others or have good intentions also not directly related to a selfish desire understanding that pain causes suffering, and wanting to avoid that suffering for yourself or others.

That sounds honest more than selfish to me. One of the things that makes Dharma wonderful for me is that it is a path, so we can progress right from where we are all the way to enlightenment. We have to admit where we are. Also, without a personal inner experience of pain & suffering how would we feel any empathy, compassion, or concern for others? We care when we have enough courage to know how much what someone else is going through, hurts.

-Is happiness and love in general not just an emotional state?

Love is used to mean lots of different things and they are not often clear. It can mean clinging to something/one for happiness, it can mean appreciation, desire, a wish to benefit another because of their connection to you, it can mean universal, equal & all-encompassing wish for others to be happy & free from suffering. Happiness is often used to describe a fleeting emotional high of some kind. Sometimes I think joy is easier to comprehend as a more stable, deeper, and complete state. Happiness as a spiritual goal does not refer to the emotional high, but the underlying potential for pure joy that all of us have. It is not satisfaction as much as release of all the emotions that prevent it combined with the natural wish to benefit others.

Those thoughts lead me to believe that neutrality to everything is the result of true selflessness (if selflessness is even possible for a human to aquire). Obviously Buddha (and other enlightened people) believe being 'good' and showing love to others is how people should live their lives...

So my question is why? Even if someone truly accepts selflessness and not-self fully, are all of their actions/intentions/etc still not directly results of emotional wants? (want for happiness or dissatisfaction of suffering)?

That is the beginning of the path... eventually one can let go of those things progressing towards greater purity of mind/heart. I think for the Buddha it is not a "belief" that he should benefit others. It is more a natural response to the needs of others because it is the only sane response... it leads to happiness & joy for the beings who receive it is joyful for the enlightened one as well. One of the biggest samsaric delusions is that there is a difference between happiness for other and self as if it is a competition. The enlightened one sees the fallacy here so why would he engage?

[BronUVT]

I now have come to a side-thought about 'true good intention', and that I cannot see how it truly exists...
For example:
-Is the desire to be good and generate good karma not a selfish desire to avoid bad karma (or selfish desire to obtain happiness)?
-Is the desire to help others or have good intentions also not directly related to a selfish desire understanding that pain causes suffering, and wanting to avoid that suffering for yourself or others.

Hi Balgore,

Right Intention/Aspiration as outlined in The Eightfold Path, isn't motivated by desire. Ajahn Sumedho explains it here:



Right Aspiration

The second element of the Eightfold path is samma sankappa. Sometimes this is translated as 'Right Thought', thinking in the right way. However, it actually has more of a dynamic quality - like 'intention', 'attitude' or 'aspiration'. I like to use 'aspiration' which is somehow very meaningful in this Eightfold Path - because we do aspire.

It is important to see that aspiration is not desire. The Pali word 'tanha' means desire that comes out of ignorance, whereas 'sankappa' means aspiration not coming from ignorance.

Aspiration might seem like a kind of desire to us because in English we use the word 'desire' for everything of that nature - either aspiring or wanting. You might think that aspiration is a kind of tanha, wanting to become enlightened (bhava tanha) - but samma sankappa comes from Right Understanding, seeing clearly. It is not wanting to become anything; it is not the desire to become an enlightened person. With Right Understanding, that whole illusion and way of thinking no longer makes sense.

from : 'The Four Noble Truths ... number 4. The Fourth Noble Truth '

more here....http://salmun.cwahi.net/wrel/rbud/dbti/fnt/fnt.htm#04

[gabbaman]

Great responses from everyone, that makes a lot of sense, thanks again.

I especially enjoyed Plogsties take on neutrality. Now looking at what I said, it makes me laugh.

[Solo3uc4]

I'm serious when I say that, it seems to me, that the only way to be neutral to everything is to be dead or to be anencephalic.

Maybe Balgore was makeing reference to dispassion. Most people that gets into pop Nwe Age Buddhism books equates dispassion, equanimity and neutrality as something understood as the way you have quoted it (I do not mean this is the case for Balgore).

I don't mean to be cynical here - I just can't go along with an idea that would be impossible for me.

When it is not well understood this happens frequently. I have had this kind of reaction with people who is faced with a wrong idea of dispassion or equanimity.

Maybe this can be for some help to make clear things:

"And what is the purpose of knowledge & vision of things as they actually are? What is its reward?"

"Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward."

"And what is the purpose of disenchantment? What is its reward?"

"Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward."

"And what is the purpose of dispassion? What is its reward?"

"Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward.

"Thus in this way, Ananda, skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward. Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward. Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward. Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward. Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward.

"In this way, Ananda, skillful virtues lead step-by-step to the consummation of arahantship."

AN 11.1

[bahrains27]

For Equanimity the teaching is like this:

Now, O monks, what is worldly equanimity? There are these five cords of sensual desire: forms cognizable by the eye... tangibles cognizable by the body that are wished for and desired, agreeable and endearing, associated with sense desire and alluring. It is the equanimity that arises with regard to these five cords of sense desire which is called 'worldly equanimity.'

"Now, what is unworldy equanimity? With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of gladness and sadness, a monk enters upon and abides in the fourth meditative absorption, which has neither pain-nor-pleasure and has purity of mindfulness due to equanimity. This is called 'unworldly equanimity.'

"And what is the still greater unworldly equanimity? When a taint-free monk looks upon his mind that is freed of greed, freed of hatred and freed of delusion, then there arises equanimity. This is called a 'still greater unworldly equanimity.'

SN 36.31

[karkinadze]

Great quotes Kaarine. That does bring some further things for me into understanding about enlightenment. You do absolve yourself of pleasure as well as pain once you remove emotional attachment and desires from things. But, in having freedom of those things, you also get peace and joy, which bring different types of 'pleasure' back into your life that are not focused around attachment or temporary things.

Am I understanding that right?

[ConoMadura]

Also, while im on the topic of enlightenment, is it possible to attain enlightenment without fully following the noble eightfold path?

For example, can one who isnt necessarily a vegitarian, or occassionally has some wine or beer, etc. But, who still maintains right thought, right understanding, and right intention, still achieve enlightenment? Or must the path fully be followed in order to achieve enlightenment? Will clinging to past pleasures (perhaps video games, movies, fine food, etc.) hold one back from achieving enlightment?

More or less, im asking if someone who is generally good (but not wholly good) can still achieve enlightenment eventually?

(perhaps only one who is enlightened can answer this question?)

[pumpineemob]

Also, while im on the topic of enlightenment, is it possible to attain enlightenment without fully following the noble eightfold path? Nibbana occurs when craving has ceased

The Noble Eightfold Path Begins with Right View, which in essence is a view that leads to not wanting or adverting from things, i.e. not craving

This then leads to seeing impermanence, dukkha and anatta when then goes into a feedback loop into right view, which then leads to more vision and less craving and so on until all craving has ceased

If one steps out of the Noble Eightfold Path then one has entered the path of wanting or repelling and so there will be no nibbana, since there is craving to get, craving to enjoy or craving to get rid of and craving leads to grasping which leads to dukkha

For example, can one who isnt necessarily a vegitarian Dont have to be a vegertarian to follow the Noble Eight Fold Path

, or occassionally has some wine or beer, etc. But, who still maintains right thought, right understanding, and right intention, still achieve enlightenment? If you drink then there is no Right View and so no Right intention etc

Or must the path fully be followed in order to achieve enlightenment? Yes, however you dont "achieve" nibbana

Nibbana is what is left when craving has ceased

If you want nibbana, there will be no nibbana

Will clinging to past pleasures (perhaps video games, movies, fine food, etc.) hold one back from achieving enlightment? If one clingings then Right View has not been fully developed and so there will be dukkha and no nibbana

More or less, im asking if someone who is generally good (but not wholly good) can still achieve enlightenment eventually? One can be good but still not have craving cease and so there is no nibbana

[Sukadrukanga]

Great quotes Kaarine. That does bring some further things for me into understanding about enlightenment. You do absolve yourself of pleasure as well as pain once you remove emotional attachment and desires from things. But, in having freedom of those things, you also get peace and joy, which bring different types of 'pleasure' back into your life that are not focused around attachment or temporary things.

Am I understanding that right?

When there is no craving, then the "fires" that burn in the mind, greed hatred and delusion, go out

All that is left is coolness and peace

[NeroASERCH]

This may be of some help to you



Having Peace in Ourselves

Let the various moods and emotions that come up simply be as they are. In this
way we train really to be with ourselves. We train this very self to sit and really be
there, to stand and be really there, to walk and really be there, until always, in whatever changing posture, we can be called fully aware. We are fully there through our peace. It’s different from being on top of our experience through getting carried away
with pleasures and having fun. Instead, being fully up to life comes from peace of
heart. If there is peace, we are in a state where we can adjust to anything that comes
up, so we can always be in the appropriate mode. We see things correctly and have
right understanding because the mental impulses (sa ˙nkh¯aras) are quiet. There are no
proliferations. We feel the sa ˙nkh¯aras at peace. With all the kinds of opinions that could
come up, we won’t start arguing.

When relating to the world and society, those who are intelligent, understanding
and have a feeling of peacefulness will praise us. But should they praise us, we don’t
get happy because of it. We don’t get infatuated with it. Ultimately, the praise of
someone is just a product of the delusion of the one who expresses it. Just that much.
We don’t have feelings of like and dislike. Praise is just what it is. We don’t feel that
we need to foolishly run after it. We don’t want to get on the track of being a slave.
If we maintain peace, there is nothing that can do harm to us. Even if others should
blame, criticize or condemn us, making us subject to suspicions out of enmity, we
nevertheless have peace. We have peace towards the anitth¯araman¯a, the mental states
we don’t wish to have, which don’t go according to our likes. Even they can’t cause
us harm and be disadvantageous. Should someone criticize us, it’s just that much.
Eventually it all dissolves by itself. It flows away in it’s own specific way. This is
where the lokadhamma can’t dominate us, since we have nothing but peace in our
hearts.

When standing, when walking, when sitting, when sleeping and when getting up,
this is it. If we deal with society, and with things in the world around us, we can relate
in a way that is of benefit for all. We don’t go astray and drift away. We behave like
one who can let things be. We behave like saman. as, like anag¯arikas (homeless ones),
who are not bound up. This is the way we train. Training ourselves like this is really
peaceful. Wemake peace arise all the time. Whenever we are in society, we will always
have smoothness and tranquility.

5Seeing it like this, I would say, gives us an understanding of the way to let things
be Dhamma – it gives us a sense for the state where we are Dhamma. If we truly
are Dhamma, external things, the realm of forms (r ¯upa-khandha) and conditions (sa ˙nkh¯aras), our living in society, and objects around us are no problem – they won’t make us struggle. There is no confusion, no happiness, no suffering, no delight, no sorrow. There is nothing which can give rise to feelings of opposition or aversion. Everything flows naturally following the force this state of peace has. Everything dissolves
through the power of peacefulness. Nothing really matters, there is nothing to gain.

It’s not essential, it’s uninteresting. We don’t find all those things that we were interested in when we were children attractive any more. There is nothing about the world that can overwhelm us, there is nothing that canmake us go wrong. Not to fail is really a good thing. This is indeed something we could rightly accept praise for – but there is no one to praise. It just praises itself, just like the name and the qualities of the Lord
Buddha that we recite together in the chant on the Nine Qualities of the Buddha. The praise is intrinsically there through itself
http://www.watnongpahpong.org/ebooks...he%20Light.pdf

and this

http://www.abhayagiri.org/main/article_print/23/

[Goooooblin]

Thank you clw_uk, you have answered all of my questions.

EDIT: did many of you have so many questions like me when you started learning about Buddhism?

[noingenah]

did many of you have so many questions like me when you started learning about Buddhism?

Yes, loads of them. I used to pester my teachers and people I met at centers non-stop. They must have groaned when they saw me loom into view.

[violetgorman]

Thank you clw_uk, you have answered all of my questions.

EDIT: did many of you have so many questions like me when you started learning about Buddhism?

Yep, probably more lol

[NickGrass]

in having freedom of those things, you also get peace and joy,

That's it Balgore,

but I think Craig has posted it very well:

All that is left is coolness and peace

Just an additional comment,

Saccavibhanga Sutta (MN 141) gives you a wide exposition of the Four Noble Truths. Its a good place to start the understanding and practice of the Dhamma. Along the Sutta there is an exposition of the Eightfold Noble Path step by step.

is it possible to attain enlightenment without fully following the noble eightfold path?

The Eight Fold is much more a kind of organism than a mechanism. It is convenient to watch through it carefully and see that all the steps are a whole. We can not be selective. The practice of one needs the practice of the others. It is needed a carefull practice in each of it's steps or stages of realization. The Dhamma is a living being. Its a way of life; a way to awake, to see things as they really are. There is a sutta, a wonderfull one, quoted in a thread by Craig; it is the Maha-Assapura Sutta (MN 39) which opens wonderfully...

in having freedom of those things, you also get peace and joy,

when we are talking about pace and joy we need to have in mind this kind of realization through what is meant by Right Concentration, a core aspect for meditative skills. To be joyfull and in peace is a good indicator of a right understanding and practice of Dhamma.

"And what is right concentration? Herein a monk aloof from sense desires, aloof from unwholesome thoughts, attains to and abides in the first meditative absorption (jhana) which is detachment-born and accompanied by applied thought, sustained thought, joy, and bliss.

"By allaying applied and sustained thought he attains to, and abides in the second jhana which is inner tranquillity, which is unification (of the mind), devoid of applied and sustained thought, and which has joy and bliss.

"By detachment from joy he dwells in equanimity, mindful, and with clear comprehension and enjoys bliss in body, and attains to and abides in the third jhana which the noble ones (ariyas) call: 'Dwelling in equanimity, mindfulness, and bliss.'

"By giving up of bliss and suffering, by the disappearance already of joy and sorrow, he attains to, and abides in the fourth jhana, which is neither suffering nor bliss, and which is the purity of equanimity-mindfulness. This is called right concentration.

Note here the condition for right concentration: "Aloof from sense desires and unwholesome thoughts" and then the description of the four mental states that are reached through meditation which goes from joy and bliss to equanimity mindfulness where Craig has told as coolness and peace in his own words.

Meditation is a core aspect for the understanding and practice of the Buddha Dhamma.