[ZX3URrBH]

Hello

I've been spending time recently, during meditation, contemplating where my thoughts come from, and don't seem to have an answer yet, they just seem to appear in my head.

I wondered if anyone else had considered this?

[Beauseaccerce]

Hi JadeRabbit,

When the mind becomes settled and peaceful, thoughts dissolve altogether.

This might be helpful:


Dependent Origination w/ Bhante Vimalaramsi

[Mearticbaibre]

Thoughts are reflections of our world. Sometimes they are directly connected with the perception of sight, sound, etc... sometimes they deal with perceptions of memories and dreams.

[Trebbinsa]

Budddha taught our thoughts come from perceptions and perceptions come from elements.

For example, the Buddha taught from the sensuality element come sensual perceptions and from sensual perceptions come sensual thoughts.

The element of sensuality is an in-born tendency (asusaya).

The same for the element of ill-will, etc.

Consider a new born infant. It cannot really think but it has urges of need & frustration.

In terms of thought, the best the infant can do is cry or giggle.

Kind regards

[uncoodync]

Thank you for the replies and please excuse my lack of understanding, but if I'm sitting in meditation, having reduced external factors/perceptions, what is causing the random thoughts to appear? I'm trying to trace it right back to the beginning of the thought arising.

Element - I think I understand what you mean, but in my context, does this mean the source is from an 'element'? If so, what (and where) is it?

[MattJargin]

Thank you for the replies and please excuse my lack of understanding, but if I'm sitting in meditation, having reduced external factors/perceptions, what is causing the random thoughts to appear? I'm trying to trace it right back to the beginning of the thought arising.

Doesn't thought arise through memories of the previous contact of the sense bases and resultant feelings/moods/experiences if there are no external stimuli present ?

Other than that, I think perhaps its something to do with neurons and the brain, is it
not ?




.

[pimbertiemoft]

Thank you for the replies and please excuse my lack of understanding, but if I'm sitting in meditation, having reduced external factors/perceptions, what is causing the random thoughts to appear? I'm trying to trace it right back to the beginning of the thought arising.

A very exciting question JR and a brilliant approach to meditation. A really first rate thread. Whatever technical definition one finds, it's never the same as the experience of discovering stuff directly in meditation.

The source of thoughts is 'where its at' but you will need to find it for yourself. Relax and follow the breath - the solution will manifest in good time.

Namaste
Kris

[Xbcofega]

memories of the previous contact of the sense bases and resultant feelings/moods/experiences if there are no external stimuli present

I think you've got it right, Aloka-D.

My thoughts:

Brain activity goes on every 24 hours a day and, I'm pretty sure, reflects neuronal pathways (circuits) that have arisen as a result of (past) sensory input and spontaneous associations ( that, in some way, characterize the human intellect) that arise constantly. It is a normal part of brain function and connot really be turned off (anesthetics do not turn this off- they interefere with transmission of sensory information to the higher centers). It is an innate nature of the human brain that this chatter occurs - creative thinking depends critically on such processes and our intellect, the ability to abstract and also the ability to "think outside of the box" (creativity) depends on this.

I've heard there is evidence that this constant "chatter" can be modified by meditation and it may be that these circuits can also be so modified. Being able to do this would be very helpful for more complex thinking - for example the sort of process involved in solving a difficult mathematical problem.

But taking the view that this chatter can be completely controlled by meditation my not be realistic.

[IoninnyHaro]

I think all our thoughts stem from our 'ego'. When we can quiet our minds we temporarily experience a break from its grip.
Am I on the right track?

[66paptroump]

If I look at a leaf and touch it, and think ''the leaf is green and smooth '' the thoughts are connected to the sense bases, not to ego. I think perhaps ego arises from thoughts of "me" and "mine".

However, as I mentioned #1, when the mind becomes relaxed and tranquil, all thoughts begin to settle naturally.







.

[cyslespitocop]

Element - I think I understand what you mean, but in my context, does this mean the source is from an 'element'? If so, what (and where) is it?

Thoughts come from at least two sources:

(1) conditioned experience. for example, we ate ice-cream yesterday and, today, the thought arises of ice-cream

(2) in born tendencies (elements). here, an object of experience is not necessary. for example, we have tendencies towards sensuality, ill-will, becoming, doubt, etc. so these moods arise and thoughts come from these moods

[Sadsidioribre]

A very exciting question JR and a brilliant approach to meditation. A really first rate thread. Whatever technical definition one finds, it's never the same as the experience of discovering stuff directly in meditation.

The source of thoughts is 'where its at' but you will need to find it for yourself. Relax and follow the breath - the solution will manifest in good time.

Namaste
Kris

Thanks for the encouragement Kris, much appreciated

[kjanyeaz1]

Thoughts come from at least two sources:

(1) conditioned experience. for example, we ate ice-cream yesterday and, today, the thought arises of ice-cream

(2) in born tendencies (elements). here, an object of experience is not necessary. for example, we have tendencies towards sensuality, ill-will, becoming, doubt, etc. so these moods arise and thoughts come from these moods

Ahh, I see, so those in born tendencies can also be a result of past experience (memories), along with our own conditioning.

Would you say that karma affects these elements as well?

[husartrof]

Maybe it's a result of karma. This would address the question of wether karma has a use.

[foonlesse]

Maybe it's a result of karma. This would address the question of wether karma has a use.

The Buddha advised against speculation about the results of kamma:


AN 4.77 Acintita Sutta : Unconjecturable

"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....077.than.html

[priordine]

Their source isn't an important meditation goal. I'm thinking here of a poisoned arrow - drop the thoughts, as becoming aware of their pedigree is unnecessary.

If I may quote The Basic Method of Meditation by Ajahn Brahm:

During meditation, we are not going to develop a mind which accumulates and holds on to things, but instead we develop a mind which is willing to let go of things, to let go of burdens. Outside of meditation we have to carry the burden of our many duties, like so many heavy suitcases, but within the period of meditation so much baggage is unnecessary. So, in meditation, see much baggage you can unload. Think of these things as burdens, heavy weights pressing upon you. Then you have the right attitude for letting go of these things, abandoning them freely without looking back. This effort, this attitude, this movement of mind that inclines to giving up, is what will lead you into deep meditation. Even during the beginning stages of this meditation, see if you can generate the energy of renunciation, the willingness to give things away, and little by little the letting go will occur. As you give things away in your mind you will feel much lighter, unburdened and free. In the way of meditation, this abandoning of things occurs in stages, step by step. I suppose I'm off to the Intro threads, now that I've broken my silence.

[expabsPapsgag]

Ahh, I see, so those in born tendencies can also be a result of past experience (memories), along with our own conditioning.

Would you say that karma affects these elements as well?

No.

I am deliberately differentiating karmic or conditioned experience from the tendencies or elements.

The tendencies (elements) are simply in-born drives.

For example, a child is born and has the tendency to want to eat food.

Such a tendency is not karmic. It is merely instinctual.

So, if we meditate, we may, for example, feel fear. Such fear generally arises because we are entering into a new sphere of experience.

Such fear is not 'karmic' because the situation in which it is arising we have never experienced before.

Kind regards

[ZIZITOPER]

Yes, the thoughts are karmic traces. In-born tendencies are the fruits of karma ripening. If we meditate and contemplate karma and what it means we shall loosen a lot of the attachment we have to things. There will grow an understanding that things exist because of causes and conditions rather than created by some deity. These things include us and our thoughts. Thoughts arise because of karma just like every other phenomena.

[Longwow]

The following teaching shows the link between dependent arising and karma quite clearly:

http://www.chezpaul.org.uk/buddhism/...eel/depend.htm

It should be noted that karma and the laws of karma refer to the workings of the ignorant mind not that of an awakened being. Through our meditation we shall eventually "wake up" from our ignorance and see our craving, ego-grasping mind as it really is - empty of inherent existence - and at this point craving will cease and karma will also stop being produced.

[PRengine]

Thank you all for your help, it's very much appreciated