[Carfanate]

Personally, before a meditation session, I find it best to recall Ajahn Sumedho's words of wisdom "Let go, let go, let go !"

[Trikaduliana]

Very true Aloka-D whatever happens, no problem

[Cogebrego]

The Buddha advised against speculation about the results of kamma:

Well that pretty much closes down that avenue of thought.

[tussinelde]

The following teaching shows the link between dependent arising and karma quite clearly:

http://www.chezpaul.org.uk/buddhism/...eel/depend.htm

It should be noted that karma and the laws of karma refer to the workings of the ignorant mind not that of an awakened being. Through our meditation we shall eventually "wake up" from our ignorance and see our craving, ego-grasping mind as it really is - empty of inherent existence - and at this point craving will cease and karma will also stop being produced.

Hi

That the Buddha himself taught what is quoted directly below is highly questionable:
Karma Formations (Sankhara) are Volitional activities.
Bodily Formations
Verbal Formations
Mental Formations The Buddha himself defined the sankhara is the bodily conditioner (which is the breathing in & out), the verbal conditioner (which is intitial thought & discursive thought) and the mind conditioner (which is perception & feeling). [see MN 44]

The Buddha did not define the sankhara as 'karma'. If the sankhara were karma, the Buddha would have called the 2nd link 'karma'.

The Buddha himself in many places advised karma occurs after contact, such as follows:
"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech & intellect.

And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....063.than.html In the Samyutta Nikaya, there are a series of verses about the arising of perception, which state:
From the sensuality element arise sensual perceptions, from sensual perceptions arise sensual intentions, from sensual intentions one misconducts oneself by body, speech & mind

From the ill-will element...cruelty element...renunciation element...non-will element...non-cruelty element.... The 'misconduct' or karma occurs after contact. It occurs after feeling and after perception.

In short, intention in Dependent Origination arises at craving. It follows karma begins at craving & comes to maturity at becoming. From karma, one takes birth into the various [psychological] realms, as follows:
"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect.

"And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play.

"And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma. That intention occurs after contact, is also clarified by the following passage:
"The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect...

"Forms... Sounds... Smells... Tastes... Tactile sensations... Ideas...

"Eye-consciousness... Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness...

"Eye-contact... Ear-contact... Nose-contact... Tongue-contact... Body-contact... Intellect-contact...

"Feeling born of eye-contact... Feeling born of ear-contact... Feeling born of nose-contact... Feeling born of tongue-contact... Feeling born of body-contact... Feeling born of intellect-contact...

"Perception of forms... Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas...

"Intention for forms... Intention for sounds... Intention for smells... Intention for tastes... Intention for tactile sensations... Intention for ideas...

"Craving for forms... Craving for sounds... Craving for smells... Craving for tastes... Craving for tactile sensations... Craving for ideas...

"Thought directed at forms... Thought directed at sounds... Thought directed at smells... Thought directed at tastes... Thought directed at tactile sensations... Thought directed at ideas...

"Evaluation of forms... Evaluation of sounds... Evaluation of smells... Evaluation of tastes... Evaluation of tactile sensations... Evaluation of ideas is endearing & alluring in terms of the world. That is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit...22.0.than.html The tendencies (anusaya) are related to or very close to the asava (outflows, fermentations, etc) and ignorance. The Buddha never taught these things have a prior cause, such as follows:
From the origination of fermentation comes the origination of ignorance. From the cessation of fermentation comes the cessation of ignorance.

From the origination of ignorance comes the origination of fermentation. From the cessation of ignorance comes the cessation of fermentation.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....009.than.html What this means is the ignorance causes ignorance. Fermentations (in the form of the five hindrances) bubble up from ignorance, which is their cause. Due to the manifestation of the fermentations, ignorance is maintained because the fermentations prevent or block insight.

Whatever ideas you & your gurus have about Dependent Origination, my opinion, based on the evidence in the suttas, is the Buddha himself certainly did not entertain such ideas. It does not matter how many gurus & translators use the term 'karmic formations' for the 2nd link of Dependent Origination, there is no evidence, both from the scriptures & from meditative experience that the Buddha himself taught such notions of karma ocurring prior to sense contact & craving.

So returning to the original question, the Buddha taught from various elements or tendencies arise the various perceptions and from the various perceptions arise the various thoughts.

In short, due to ignorance, there are 'fermentations'. INWARDLY, due to the 'pressure' or 'bubbling' of fermentations, moods ('the five hindrances') occur and due to these bubbling moods, thoughts occur in meditation, despite there being no sense contract via the eyes, ears, nose, tongue & body.

In fact, these 'inner thoughts' are themselves the sankhara of the 2nd link. When we meditate, any inwardly disturbed breathing, inwardly disturbed thinking & inwardly disturbed perceptions & feelings are the three sankhara being cooked up or stirred up by ignorance.

The suttas describe well how the three sankharas, as defined in MN 44, are calmed and how ignorance calmed:
"There are these six calmings. When one has attained the first jhana, speech has been calmed. When one has attained the second jhana, directed thought & evaluation have been calmed. When one has attained the third jhana, rapture has been calmed. When one has attained the fourth jhana, in-and-out breathing has been calmed. When one has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, perception & feeling have been calmed. When a monk's effluents (asava) have ended, passion has been calmed, aversion has been calmed, delusion has been calmed."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....011.than.html Kind regards

[oxixernibioge]

If you sit quietly, you will notice that all the sense doors are firing all the time. That means sight, sound, sense, taste, smell and mind. Everything is changing all the time. This living organism doesn't stop changing. Of course thoughts will bubble along, just as sensations will dance across the skin, dots of color will splay across the visual field, tones will ring distantly in the auditory field. Usually we just ignore these phenomena, because we're so used to them after being so close to them all our life. We filter them right out. Same with most random thoughts.

Where do they come from, all these sense contacts? It's just part of having a body, being alive. Where do random muscle twitches come from? Where does hunger originate? You could ask those things as easily as you could ask about the origin of random thoughts. It doesn't do any good to identify with any of it too closely. You are not your random thoughts. Don't worry about thoughts.

[avaiftBoara]

It's just part of having a body, being alive.

I would add to the list thinking and reasoning - that is to say, interpreting/integrating our sense data into a picture of the world ( including abstractions) that makes sense to us and allows us to deal with the life we have rather than being buffeted about randomly. I do not see meditation as a means of shutting off thinking (with all that comes with it) but as a means of directing and controlling the thought process in a way that allows "better" to deal with reality.

[Uzezqelj]

You know, it's interesting how we tend to relate to thoughts. There's a good thread over at ZFI with a nice couple of sutta references that seem relevant to this discussion:
http://www.zenforuminternational.org...hp?f=57&t=6064
It describes the practice of not pushing forward, yet not staying in place. And that's what I think we need to do ideally in the face of thoughts that bubble along. I'm not so sure that directing and controlling the thought process is quite how I would put it. It's more about understanding the thought process, and cultivating the conditions that enable a greater peacefulness and equanimity. According to conditions, things can settle down. I just don't worry about thoughts. But I understand each individual can have his or her own legitimate approach.

[rikdpola]

. I do not see meditation as a means of shutting off thinking (with all that comes with it) but as a means of directing and controlling the thought process in a way that allows "better" to deal with reality.

For me meditation isn't about directing and controlling thought processes, its about just relaxing and letting it all go .

[sbrpkkl]

There's a good thread over at ZFI with a nice couple of sutta references that seem relevant to this discussion

Personally I think this discussion is a good one - and I can't quite see the benefits of cross referencing with a discussion of 7 posts at ZFI, with a different title which doesn't seem especially relevant to this one. No offence intended though.

Here are the sutta references I noticed there:
http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana...nalavagg.htm#1

and here:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....001.than.html

and here:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit...8.01.than.html






.

[doogiehoussi]

Apologies then. I thought it was relevant to this discussion because of the notion of "not pushing forward, not staying in place" as it relates to the notion of trying to control thoughts. To me it seemed very much on topic.

[spravka.ua]

When we begin to meditate, the thoughts that arise are signs of activity within the mind. They don't come from anywhere other than the mind.

The object is to calm the mind to the point where thoughts no longer arise.

During a meditation session we need to be mindful of distractions -even the thoughts which seem important to us - and return to the breath again.

Always return to the breath and recognise the activity of the mind as distraction.

WS.

[XqrkN4a0]

We start with shamatha meditation, which is the development of a calm, abiding mind - this is the mind of relaxing and letting go, which Aloka-D is talking about and is the method using mindfulness to still the activity of the mind, which Woodscooter is talking about. This kind of mind gets right at the the craving. But we Buddhists usually then try to go further by using vipassana meditation to use special insight into the nature of reality and use the kind of mind, which tries to realize wisdom, thereby ridding ourselves of ignorance itself and completely cut off the real source of karma and suffering.

Of course there are other types of meditation used by Buddhists such as metta meditation to develop loving kindness and tonglen, which really crushes the ego by using another approach to realizing reality. Personally I find walking meditation good for both calming the mind and meditating on impermanence and seeing directly that we are nothing more than a process.







edited for spacing

[wiweimeli]

I've been spending time recently, during meditation, contemplating where my thoughts come from, and don't seem to have an answer yet, they just seem to appear in my head.

I wondered if anyone else had considered this?

During a meditation session we need to be mindful of distractions -even the thoughts which seem important to us - and return to the breath again.

Always return to the breath and recognise the activity of the mind as distraction.

Absolutely.


...and the Buddha gave the following advice to his son Rahula :

[quote]
"Rahula, develop meditation that is like space; for when you develop meditation that is like space, arisen agreeable and disagreeable contacts will not invade your mind and remain.

Just as space is not established anywhere, so too, Rahula, develop meditation that is like space; for when you develop meditation that is like space, agreeable and disagreeable contacts will not invade your mind and remain."

MN 62 (from Bhikkhu Bodhi translation)

Bhikkhu Thanissaro translation here:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....062.than.html