[compiit]

Again from Wikipedia the Buddhist doctrine of Dependent Arising

not Wikipedia again !


Try this version from Ven P.A. Payutto:


An example of Dependent Origination in everyday life (Chapter 5)


Let us take a simple example of how the principle of Dependent Origination operates in everyday life. Suppose there are two school chums, named 'John' and 'Ian.' Whenever they meet at school they smile and say "Hello" to each other. One day John sees Ian, and approaches him with a friendly greeting ready, only to be answered with silence and a sour expression. John is peeved by this, and stops talking to Ian. In this case, the chain of reactions might proceed in the following way:

1. Ignorance (avijja): John is ignorant of the true reason for Ian's grim face and sullenness. He fails to reflect on the matter wisely and to ascertain the real reasons for Ian's behavior, which may have nothing at all to do with his feelings for John.

2. Volitional Impulses (sankhara): As a result, John proceeds to think and formulate theories in his mind, conditioned by his temperament, and these give rise to doubt, anger, and resentment, once again dependent on his particular temperament.

3. Consciousness (viññana): Under the influence of these defilements, John broods. He takes note of and interprets Ian's behavior and actions in accordance with those previous impressions; the more he thinks about it, the surer he gets; Ian's every gesture seems offensive.

4. Body and mind (namarupa): John's feelings, thoughts, moods, facial expressions and gestures, that is, the body and mind together, begin to take on the overall features of an angry or offended person, primed to function in accordance with that consciousness.

5. Sense bases (salayatana): John's sense organs are primed to receive information that is related to and conditioned by the body-mind organism's state of anger or hurt.

6. Contact (phassa): The impingement on the sense organs will be of the activities or attributes of Ian which seem particularly relative to the case, such as frowning expressions, unfriendly gestures, and so on.

7. Feeling (vedana): Feelings, conditioned by sense contact, are of the unpleasant kind.

8. Craving (tanha): Vibhavatanha, craving for non-being, arises, the dislike or aversion for that offensive image, the desire for it to go away or to be destroyed.

9. Clinging (upadana): Clinging and obsessive thinking in relation to Ian's behavior follows. Ian's behavior is interpreted as a direct challenge; he is seen as a disputant, and the whole situation demands some kind of remedial action.

10. Becoming (bhava): John's subsequent behavior falls under the influence of clinging and his actions become those of an antagonist.

11. Birth (jati): As the feeling of enmity becomes more distinct, it is assumed as an identity. The distinction between 'me' and 'him' becomes more distinct, and there is a self which is obliged to somehow respond to the situation.

12. Aging and death (jaramarana): This 'self,' or condition of enmity, exists and flourishes dependent on certain conditions, such as the desire to appear tough, to preserve honor and pride, and to be the victor, which all have their respective opposites, such as feelings of worthlessness, inferiority, and failure. As soon as that self arises, it is confronted with the absence of any guarantee of victory. Even if he does attain the victory he desires, there is no guarantee that John will be able to preserve his supremacy for any length of time. He may not, in fact, be the 'tough victor' he wants to be, but rather the loser, the weakling, the one who loses face. These possibilities of suffering play with John's moods and produce stress, insecurity, and worry. They in turn feed ignorance, thus beginning a new round of the cycle. Such negative states are like festering wounds which have not been treated, and so continue to release their 'poisoning' effect on John's consciousness, influencing all of his behavior, and causing problems both for himself and for others. In John's case, he may feel unhappy for the whole of that day, speaking gruffly to whoever he comes into contact with, and so increasing the likelihood of more unpleasant incidents


continued:

http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/coarise.htm

[massons]

Continuing from #21


There's also "Paticcasamuppada: Practical Dependent Origination" by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu in which he states :


The difference of the Dhamma language and everyday language can also be found in interpreting the “state of seeking birth” (sambhavesi). In performing the Buddhist rite for dedication, we recite a portion of the sutta for dedication: “to grant all sentient beings - those that have been born or in the state of seeking birth - happiness.” This refers to two kinds of sentient beings: one that has already been born (bhuta), and one that is seeking birth. This is the interpretation of ordinary people in Thailand and other countries. The sentient beings that have been born are living now, like you and me. As for those who are still in the “state of seeking birth,” there is a consciousness that is without a physical shell moving around seeking birth. This is an interpretation entirely in everyday language, and not according to the Buddha Dhamma.

Buddhism does not advocate a consciousness or entity that moves around seeking birth [or rebirth, as is usually believed]; it is a belief held by people who embrace the concept of a continuing existence. In Buddhism, consciousness emerges and expires in an instant according to the law of dependent arising. This is my opinion, Buddhism's “state of seeking birth” is interpreted in the Dhamma language; it is different from that of everyday language. Buddhism’s “state of seeking birth” refers to a state that, in the case of ordinary people, is still without vexation; a state where there is still the absence of Craving, Clinging, or holding on to self.

It is normal for Craving, Clinging, and the holding on to ego and ego possessiveness to exist in everyday life, but they are inactive most of the times. For instance, those of you sitting there listening are without the ego because you do not crave or cling to anything. You do not have the illusion of an ego. You are just sitting there, listening naturally, and you are in a normal and blank state. When strong Craving and Clinging emerge, however, intense suffering follows. Ordinary people thus live in two states: where one is “born” because there is Craving, Clinging, and a suffering self, and where one is in a “state of seeking birth.” They are the objects of the Buddhist rite for dedication: those that are “born” and foolish and those that are in a “state of seeking birth” and oblivious of what is happening.

The “state of seeking birth” awaits the birth of the ego and ego possessiveness. It is a sorry state because the ego and ego possessiveness are ready to emerge at any time. When one loses Right Mindfulness, and the ego and ego possessiveness develop out of contact between Ignorance and the surrounding, there is “birth.” This “birth” of the ego and ego possessiveness, caused by greed or anger, is, however, short lived. Once greed or anger disappears, the “born” [birth of the ego] expires and returns to a “state of seeking birth.” Then again, from the “state of seeking birth” comes the “birth” of the ego and ego possessiveness because of craving, anger, hatred, or fear. The process of dependent arising is thus repeated. In each process of dependent arising, “birth” is realized because of causal conditions. When these causal conditions disappear, the “born” expires and returns to a “state of seeking birth.”

This interpretation of the “state of seeking birth” is useful in cultivation because the practitioner can take advantage of and benefit from it; unlike with ordinary people’s interpretation, where the consciousness leaves the body and moves around seeking birth after death. I do not believe the “state of seeking birth” should be interpreted according to everyday language. It is irrelevant to the doctrine of dependent origination, and not beneficial to us. Worse, it embraces the concept of a continuing existence.


http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books6/Bh...asamuppada.htm

Sorry, that's rather a long quote, I should probably have split it between 2 posts.


.

[rasiasertew]

And how does a Buddhist who does not believe in rebirth explain people being born in very different circumstances from each other? Isn't this due to causes in past lives or is it down to a creator God or just pure luck or something else?

Why does people being born in different circumstances have to be explained in any other way than the obvious that we can see and understand for ourselves ?

Sorry but I certainly don't believe in your 'punishment karma' system and I have no position on rebirth one way or another, because its irrelevant to me.

[peemovvie]

Well, people live in different places, so people are born in different places. I would say it is chance, rather than luck. There are a lot of people, places, and ideas in the world. So, naturally it isn't a homogenized planet. Unfortunately a lot of the people, places, and ideas are less than skillful...so some people are born with a lot, and other people are born with nothing.

It would be far stranger, given how diverse the world is, if we were all born in the same circumstances.


EDIT: Good post in 21, Aloka. Thank ya much.

[Nicihntm]

Isn't this due to causes in past lives or is it down to a creator God or just pure luck or something else?

No it is not, londonerabroad.

or something else?

It is called contingency event. An event where possibility and probability play their role.

[Zoxeeoy]

I think that this is one of those cases where here will be a disagreement between the various traditions of Buddhism.

Below is a short teaching by Kalu Rinpoche and link that is very clear in the TB belief of past and future lives.

Understanding the Need for Spiritual Practice
A Teaching by Kyabje Dorje Chang Kalu Rinpoche
Kagyu Thubten Chöling Monastery, 1986

In order to practice the Dharma taught by the Buddha it is necessary, at the outset, to establish confidence in its validity.

First we must understand that we have had countless lives in the past and will continue to have countless lives until we attain the level of a Buddha or Bodhisattva. Belief in the existence of previous and future lives gives rise to confidence in the truth of karma, the effects of actions. This confidence is based on understanding that unvirtuous actions lead to suffering and virtuous actions lead to happiness. Without this conviction, we will not abandon unvirtuous actions or perform virtuous ones.

We can reach this conviction by examining the signs of the workings of karma in the world around us. Although we are all born as human beings, each person experiences different circumstances, such as a long or short life, mental happiness or misery, and wealth or poverty. These variations in individual circumstances arise through previous karma accumulated in former lifetimes. Even animals have a sense that actions lead to results. They know enough to look for food when they are hungry, water when they are thirsty, and shade when they are hot.

If one has no confidence in the existence of past or future lives or in the truth of the effects of karma, then one will have no appreciation of Buddhism or any other religion. The practices of all religions are based on the intention to benefit oneself and others in a future existence.

The Buddha taught that sentient beings are subject to 84,000 mental afflictions; to remedy them, he gave 84,000 profound and extensive teachings. The point of all these teachings is to benefit the mind. One's body and speech will automatically derive benefit since the mind is like the master, and the body and speech are like its servants. For example, through thoughts of generosity, we perform acts of generosity; and because of angry thoughts, we use harsh words or act unkindly. The mind is the source of the action while the body and speech enact the mind's intentions. For instance, today you had the thought, "I must go to Kagyu Thubten Chöling to hear the Dharma," and in response to that thought, your body and speech somehow managed to accomplish this.

If one practices the Dharma correctly, then the four types of obscurations that veil the nature of the mind—ignorance, habitual patterns based on dualistic perception, mental afflictions, and karma—are removed. Complete elimination of these obscurations—known in Tibetan as sang—causes the inherent qualities of the mind's nature to manifest fully and spontaneously. This manifestation of the qualities and wisdom of the mind is called gye in Tibetan. Together these two form the word sang gye, which means Buddha or Buddhahood, the ultimate attainment.

It is necessary to practice Dharma because we are subject to impermanence. Born from our mother's womb, we go through childhood, mature, grow old, get sick, and eventually die. None of us can avoid birth, old age, sickness, and death. We have no control over this. That is why we need to practice the Dharma.

Since no one lives forever, we have an underlying awareness that we are going to die. But we have only the idea "I'm going to die." We don't remember the suffering, fear and difficulty we experience at the time of death. We don't really understand the nature of death because we don't understand the meaning of Dharma.

If our whole existence just disappeared at death like a flame that has been extinguished, or like water that evaporates, then everything would be fine. But the mind's nature is empty, clear, and unimpeded. Because it is empty it does not die. Our mind does not disappear, but goes on after our physical death to experience the confused appearances of the interval between death and the next rebirth (Tib. bardo). We then take rebirth in one of the six states of existence. This cycle repeats again and again. Since the nature of cyclic existence is impermanence, it is a source of only suffering and not happiness.

continued at the link:

http://www.kagyu.com/en/introduction/a-teaching

[hernkingAnank]

I did not want to make my above post too long so continueing here...

So long as we are working to end suffering within any of the Traditions , for myself at least, this issue is not all that much of a controversy. For those that are helped by a belief in past and future lives in what ever form this is great, if one does not have this beleif that is great as well.

[UlceskLialels]

Below is a short teaching by Kalu Rinpoche and link that is very clear in the TB belief of past and future lives.

I have shortened your extremely long copy and paste #26 Karma Yeshe - and the rest can be read at the link.

[geniusxs81]

Lets be a bit more flexible Buddha didnt teach the alaya because it was too hard for most beings but i am totally convinced it was mentioned.personally if theres no life after death just maximise it why become a recluse!!!!!

[doogiehoussi]

mn9 Does this not answer your questions deshy.

[searkibia]

Nibbana is not about ending existence i rest my case regards

[Snuddyentaine]

Buddha didnt teach the alaya because it was too difficult for most beings.He did mention it i am totally convinced of that.

[diplmixxxx]

mn9 Does this not answer your questions deshy.

Nothing about rebirth in MN 9. Please quote if it does

[bZEUWO4F]

Buddha didnt teach the alaya because it was too difficult for most beings.He did mention it i am totally convinced of that.

Where? Unless it was specially transmitted to you from heaven or a figment of your wildest imagination, please quote.

[mv37afnr]

My imagination is fine.Is that your best contribution?

[Sukadrukanga]

My imagination is fine.Is that your best contribution?

Contribution to what?

[KevinDonae]

Lets be a bit more flexible Buddha didnt teach the alaya because it was too hard for most beings but i am totally convinced it was mentioned.personally if theres no life after death just maximise it why become a recluse!!!!!

Sorry, but I'm confused, Alfred, who are you addressing in this post ? Please also give a reference of where alaya consciousness is mentioned by the Buddha.

Who has mentioned becoming a recluse - or are you just making a general statement ?

If you press "reply with quote" at the end of any post you are refering to, a quote of that person's post will appear in your reply box and that makes things a lot easier.

[cl004]

I will be more specific in future

Sorry, but I'm confused, Alfred, who are you addressing in this post ? Please also give a reference of where alaya consciousness is mentioned by the Buddha.

Who has mentioned becoming a recluse - or are you just making a general statement ?

If you press "reply with quote" at the end of any post you are refering to, a quote of that person's post will appear in your reply box and that makes things a lot easier.

[VXHLrsO1]

I have said this before. Comparing enlightenment to death is similar to comparing apples to oranges. When you are dead, you are dead. (pretty amazing) It is cessation of perception and feelings. When you are dead, you don't perceive anymore. Enlightenment is peaceful living. These are two different things.

That sums it up pretty well

[drlifeech]

I will be more specific in future

Thanks Alfred