[accotMask17]

I wanted to know everyones opinion on this. From what I understand, and I very well could be wrong. There are two big viewpoints on Rebirth. There was no Reincarnation in Buddhism, from what I understand, but then again, there are many schools and opinions. So to those out there, which is the one you personally feel is correct, and why?

Rebirth (Influence, Elements): This means that the only thing, in the opinion of the person, to be reborn, is our influence onto the world that we leave, in what we do and say. And the Elements that we are made up of, which continue to exist even after the decay of our bodies.

Rebirth (Concsiousness Transference): This means that your conciousness, or personality, your Karma, is transferred to another being, until the ending of Samsara by that conciousness. A prime example of this type would be the Dalai Lama, and his continued rebirth/reincarnation?

[mybooboo]

Not really understanding your first example. As "influence" is the memory others have of you and really isn't a rebirth so to speak. And our base elements do exist after the decay of the body it was part of.

I follow the Mahayana school, Gelug to be specific, and the Mind is what carries on to the next existence, in which your Karma decides what that existence would be. Creating positive Karma should help to allow another precious human birth in which you can further study the Dharma and progress on your Path. Or possibly a Pure Land, depending on your Karma from previous existences. But also negative Karma can cause a birth in a lower realm. Such as the animal or Hungry Ghost, Pretta, realm. In my understanding the cessation of Samsara comes after one has the positive Karma to become a Stream Enterer, and is nearing Enlightenment. Which would also be the cessation of dukha or suffering.

[CitsMoise17]

I was more specifically speaking about the Buddhas Analogy on Rebirth. I am copying and pasting this from another site, it is not exact, but essentially what I had read long ago...

A candle is lit. The flame burns until the candle becomes very short and is almost finished. As the flame begins to flicker out, a second candle is lit from the first. The flame of the first candle now dies out completely, leaving only the second candle burning. The flame burns away the second candle and, again, just before it reaches its end and flickers out, a third candle is lit from that . . . and so on, one candle being lit from another.

When I had read the original Sutta, I had concluded that this meant the influence left by ourselves. I also know that many, including myself, believe in Buddhism as purely psychological/philosophical, with no real belief in any sort of 'continued existence', like your Mind, or your Conciousness.

And isn't Karma 'Cause and Effect'? So wouldn't the Karma you create outside your mind, be reborn again and again?

[LICraig]

Also. In my opinion, I feel that Doctors and Scientists have already concluded that the mind is nothing more then the wiring of the brain, the processes of neurons and electrons or whatever, that your personality/mind is simply made up of your Genetics, the impact to you from your environment (Society, Culture, Mental/Physical Diseases), your thoughts, your actions, and your speech, but to a greater degree, your environment and thoughts.

The Evidence For My Argument: Should the top of your skull be cut open, and needles be poked in and out of your brain, to be specific, the areas that have been determined to be your 'Personality', you can become physically and/or mentally disabled, and your personality can change significantly.

How could your mind possibly transfer to anything, when it is your brain? And when that person you supposedly transfer to, that being, say if you are reborn as a human, will again, only be the product of his genetics, environment, thoughts, speech and actions?

[MinisuipGaicai]

Either or both works for me, I don't see the point in speculating or maintaining a fixed view on a topic that I can't verify and has no immediate bearing on my present day practice.

[Caregrasy]

Either or both works for me, I don't see the point in speculating or maintaining a fixed view on a topic that I can't verify and has no immediate bearing on my present day practice.

Hmmm. I have to respectfully disagree, when you say it doesn't affect your practice. The Buddha taught Impermanence, perhaps the idea of your Mind/Conciousness continuing on, is something that can be hurtful to it, or hold you back. Perhaps it is still an 'attachment' or 'clinging'. But everyone of course has the right to their opinion. I am just curious, and wish to discuss it further. Perhaps I can be convinced of the latter.

[casinobonuscxz]

karma (Skt; Tib: lä): action; the working of cause and effect, whereby positive (virtuous) actions produce happiness and negative (non-virtuous) actions produce suffering.
www.lamayeshe.com Karma, being the action you/your Mind make is what causes the outcome of the realm you're reborn into.

I also know that many, including myself, believe in Buddhism as purely psychological/philosophical, with no real belief in any sort of 'continued existence', wether it's the mind, or your Karma. That is what you believe and that is fine. It's your belief.
The Buddha and some High Lamas and Yogis have, in deep meditation, had realizations from past lives/existences

Is the candle example the sutta you are speaking of?
If so, also understand that the example of the flame is the continuing Mind. Which as it burns the first, and each following candle it is never the same. It is burning a different part of the wick, different wax of the candle and different molecules of oxygen. Then moves to another candle/existence. So our Mind is in constant change just as the flame of the candle form each moment of this existence and each following existence.

[Zysyewgg]

Then Karma has nothing at all to do with physical acts?

And why can't the flame be the Physical Karma you have created throughout your entire life, perhaps the understandings/teachings/personality traits that you left with your children, and the like?

How can you say you are the continued existence of a past Mind/Conciousness, when their is much evidence, as I said earlier on the brain, to suggest otherwise?

[SnareeWer]

Science has not proven that the mind/consciousness is a product of the brain.
There is no measurement of consciousness nor mind.

I have been in a very long debated discussion on this before with no outcome of anything but negativity. So I'll happily discuss your first post. But as to science and the mind and the proof "of" or "not of" I will not respond to, thanks

[bxxasxxa]

You can't exactly deny that if you take a chunk of your brain out of your skull, your personality/mind changes. Then could you not answer these two questions...

Then Karma has nothing at all to do with physical acts?

And why can't the flame be the Physical Karma you have created throughout your entire life, perhaps the understandings/teachings/personality traits that you left with your children, and the like?

[vipBrooriErok]

Then Karma has nothing at all to do with physical acts? Please reread my post.

And why can't the flame be the Physical Karma you have created throughout your entire life, perhaps the understandings/teachings/personality traits that you left with your children, and the like? If you don't believe in rebirth, why worry about Karma?

[HOTgirlsXXL]

Hmmm. I have to respectfully disagree, when you say it doesn't affect your practice. The Buddha taught Impermanence, perhaps the idea of your Mind/Conciousness continuing on, is something that can be hurtful to it, or hold you back. Perhaps it is still an 'attachment' or 'clinging'. But everyone of course has the right to their opinion. I am just curious, and wish to discuss it further. Perhaps I can be convinced of the latter.

Agreed, this was why the Buddha was clear that annihilationism and eternalism are both equally wrong view. Eternalism is clinging to the idea of an eternal self and contradicts the not self view, annihilationism promotes a limited view of the impacts and consequences of ones actions.

An agnostic view admitting that it's ok to be uncertain seems to me to be the appropriate response.

[Jimambol]

You must not have saw your own post...

"Karma, being the action you/your Mind make is what causes the outcome of the realm you're reborn into."

That is what that question had referred to. And you now completely ignore the latter question, the alternative theory proposed for Rebirth.

[RagonaCon]

You can't exactly deny that if you take a chunk of your brain out of your skull, your personality/mind changes. The only thing you can prove is your physical responses change.

[GtmFeqJJ]

Yes and no, Goofaholix. I am trying to address the teaching of Rebirth, and the improbabilty of your Mind being transferred to another being. Though the brain has much to do with the issue, I am willing to leave it out. The Buddha was a very logical and as Element showed me, scientific man.

[Phlkxkbh]

I have to be honest with you, theseeking1, I don't think this is something you are in a position to address any longer. I am not here to attack anyone, simply inquire. I apologise if I incited any indifference between us.

[MaigicyuNinia]

karma (Skt; Tib: lä): action; the working of cause and effect, whereby positive (virtuous) actions produce happiness and negative (non-virtuous) actions produce suffering.
www.lamayeshe.com Karma, being the action you/your Mind make is what causes the outcome of the realm you're reborn into. Then Karma has nothing at all to do with physical acts? Please explain how i didn't state it was and action/physical act?

I also said i believe in rebirth, if you do not, that is your belief and that's fine.

[pprropeciaaa]

You are proposing that it is our Mind, our Karma, that is transferred to another being. You said, "Karma, being the action you/your Mind make is what causes the outcome of the realm you're reborn into," and failed to also mention that Karma as taught by the Buddha was physical as well as mental. That is what I am saying.

I have not said at all that I don't believe in rebirth, quite the contrary, I have stated that I believe 'Rebirth' as taught by the Buddha, is nothing more then the physical Karma, or imprint, we leave on the world.

And you have yet to answer my question, "And why can't the flame be the Physical Karma you have created throughout your entire life, perhaps the understandings/teachings/personality traits that you left with your children, and the like?"

[tomspoumn]

I didn't think I or you were attacking anyone.
I hope you find and answer to your questions.

[UJRonald]

The only thing you can prove is your physical responses change.

I'm sorry. I think I mistook this for an attack.

And that is very wrong. People who have suffered major brain injuries have become mentally disabled to a great degree, or to a lesser, they could have slight or medium personality changes, have ticks and what not.

Why do you think Snipers in battle aim for the head, the brain, first and foremost? Because it 'kills' the 'person'.