[u2ZQGC6b]

Dear friends,

Are rebirth beliefs important to your practice? I'd be interested in hearing your responses to this question.

D.


Just adding a little extra later... Could you also say why they are, or aren't, important to you please ?

[Nurse_sero]

Nope. Not in the literal sense.

[Cinzomzm]

Not a bit. I've seen no reason to believe that rebirth or reincarnation occur, and don't see why we should even be wasting time worrying about hypothetical past lives or future lives or what-have-you. Dharma practice is about the here and now for me, and it's hard for me to imagine how such doctrine could be anything other than a factually-baseless distraction.

I know that a lot of other people see it differently, though, so hopefully they can chime in and explain it better than I could.

[Equackasous]

No, they are not important for the practice of Dhamma and for meditation. Rebirth, and its twin doctrine Karma, are misleading because they can be taken as... "if I do good... then I will..." so Dhamma ends in the same field of any other religious frames where you should do good because the anger of God (Karma) or to have a nice reward, as rebirth in heaven (for a good Christian) or in a better next life which is the same thing at all. The Buddha Dhamma is meant to be practiced because and just because we have understood the Four Noble Truths, the realization about suffering, the realization about a mind that is deluded, that hates and that is greedy and the realization of the way to overcome this mind states. There is no chance to practice the teachings of the historical Buddha with out understanding. An it is understanding which leads to a fruitfull practice of Buddha Dhamma here and now.

Here is a very inspiring sutta about the practice here and now so not to have hopes in a future life...

The First Visible Fruit of the Contemplative Life

"So, lord, I ask the Blessed One as well: There are these common craftsmen: elephant-trainers, horse-trainers, charioteers, archers, standard bearers, camp marshals, supply corps officers, high royal officers, commandos, military heroes, armor-clad warriors, leather-clad warriors, domestic slaves, confectioners, barbers, bath attendants, cooks, garland-makers, laundrymen, weavers, basket-makers, potters, calculators, accountants, and any other common craftsmen of a similar sort. They live off the fruits of their crafts, visible in the here and now. They give pleasure and refreshment to themselves, to their parents, wives, and children, to their friends and colleagues. They put in place an excellent presentation of offerings to priests and contemplatives, leading to heaven, resulting in happiness, conducive to a heavenly rebirth. Is it possible, lord, to point out a similar fruit of the contemplative life, visible in the here and now?"

"Yes, it is, great king. But first, with regard to that, I will ask you a counter-question. Answer however you please. Suppose there were a man of yours: your slave, your workman, rising in the morning before you, going to bed in the evening only after you, doing whatever you order, always acting to please you, speaking politely to you, always watching for the look on your face. The thought would occur to him: 'Isn't it amazing? Isn't it astounding? — the destination, the results, of meritorious deeds. For this King Ajatasattu is a human being, and I, too, am a human being, yet King Ajatasattu enjoys himself supplied and replete with the five strings of sensuality — like a deva, as it were — while I am his slave, his workman... always watching for the look on his face. I, too, should do meritorious deeds. What if I were to shave off my hair and beard, put on the ochre robes, and go forth from the household life into homelessness?'

"So after some time he shaves off his hair and beard, puts on the ochre robes, and goes forth from the household life into homelessness. Having thus gone forth he lives restrained in body, speech, and mind, content with the simplest food and shelter, delighting in solitude. Then suppose one of your men were to inform you: 'You should know, your majesty, that that man of yours — your slave, your workman... always watching for the look on your face... has gone forth from the household life into homelessness... content with the simplest food and shelter, delighting in solitude.' Would you, thus informed, say, 'Bring that man back to me. Make him again be my slave, my workman... always watching for the look on my face!'?"

"Not at all, lord. Rather, I am the one who should bow down to him, rise up out of respect for him, invite him to a seat, invite him to accept gifts of robes, almsfood, lodgings, and medicinal requisites for the sick. And I would provide him with righteous safety, defense, and protection."

"So what do you think, great king. With that being the case, is there a visible fruit of the contemplative life, or is there not?"

"Yes, lord. With that being the case, there certainly is a visible fruit of the contemplative life."

"This, great king, is the first fruit of the contemplative life, visible in the here and now, that I point out to you."

DN2: Samaññaphala Sutta

[Alexunda]

Yes belief in rebirth is important to me... it is important for a number of reasons, but most of all at the moment b/c it points to the beginning less and unending nature of mind. It reduces attachment to myself as I perceive myself. Generally helps dissolve limited, fixed notions of myself and mind and challenges me to expand perceptions. Lastly, when combined with karma it provides a clear, working context/framework for spiritual development...

Of course this is all just metaphor....

[mnhloot]

the beginning less and unending nature of mind

This is an obstacle.

[ChicasCams]

I've always struggled with concept of rebirth, so past or future lives are not important to my practice, right here and right now are whats important.

[SoorgoBardy]

I have to agree with KoolAid900 that the question of rebirth is important in gaining knowledge about the nature of mind, which is essential to my practice. Not to understand how all the causes and conditions and the interdependent nature of all phenomena has led to what we call the present moment seems to me to be missing the point. Of course we are reborn moment to moment karmically speaking but what happens after death is of interest to me too.

[OlegSan]

I've always struggled with concept of rebirth, so past or future lives are not important to my practice, right here and right now are whats important.

Hello Gary,

The question is about the usefulness about the believe of rebirth for the practice of the Buddha Dhamma. In this sense to know that it is not important for the practice of what the historical Buddha taught, do not mean that rebirth do not happens. For the here and now practice, for meditative skills, for understanding the Four Noble Truths, for the realization of the Eightfold Noble Path, for the understanding of anatta, dukkha and anicca, for taming the mind about hate, greed and Ignorance, rebirth is not usefull.

Practice just because, practice here and now... and the rest will come by itself...

[gomosopions]

Thank you Kaarine.

[Zoxeeoy]

Quote from: KoolAid900 on Today at 04:59:14 AM
the beginning less and unending nature of mind

This is an obstacle.

all depends on your view... to me it is metaphor, a step on a ladder. If I confuse the step with the destination then it becomes an obstacle. that's beauty and downfall of metaphor.

When religion is taken too literally people tend to be close minded... However when taken to be metaphorical then it is easier to empathize and gain some benefit. This is how I try to work with things, maybe literal is more important for others. I dunno.

[zdoppiklonikaa]

i don't mean to be critical, but I am baffled... How can one be Buddhist and not work with karma and rebirth? I have never met any traditional Buddhist of any type, that I know of, who did not give karma and rebirth a place.... Is this a new Western style/understanding of Buddhism?

[nasxbrtyol]

Like every other concept, kamma and rebirth are concepts that eventually have to be abandoned, like the proverbial raft. Clinging to concepts and views, including the Buddha's teachings, is an impediment. Those who get into controversies and debates concerning concepts are missing the boat, IMO. ^^

[letmelogin]

Are rebirth beliefs important to your practice? I'd be interested in hearing your responses to this question.

I used to think the issue important, but without really knowing why, except that I saw it as a motivator (e.g., "the world is not a nice place and I would prefer to depart it"). Now, since it is a matter of disagreement, and refraining from taking a stance on it does not seem to hinder practice, I prefer to focus on other aspects of the Dhamma. Also, I never felt quite comfortable with the idea that the world was something to depart from, to leave behind, because it is fraught with dukkha. I realised I did not want to look at my children and say to myself, "I prefer to depart the world than stay here with you". If we refrain from considering rebirth an essential part of the Dhamma, then I can stay and enjoy the world, but hopefully without being attached to it.

[masterboyz]

Rebirth is important in that it affords that part of me which is reborn to continue to be of help to all sentient beings. That is if I am reborn a human.

[AM1VV9r6]

Rebirth is important in that it affords that part of me which is reborn to continue to be of help to all sentient beings. That is if I am reborn a human.

What part of you is reborn?

[jhfsdhf]

How can one be Buddhist and not work with karma and rebirth?

Hi KoolAid,

I think that to follow what the historical Buddha taught not necessarily set us into the speculative realm of Karma and Rebirth. So, how do you practice with Karma and rebirth? I think the way of doing that is through the Four Noble Truths, The Eightfold Noble Path, the Brahma Vijaras, the practice and understanding of the Mahaniddana Sutta, meditation and mindfulness all in the here and now. IMO the best way to practice Karma and rebirth is to practice what the historical Buddha taught, to practice focused in the here and now and not to get entangled with those concepts.

Lets think you are a result of eons of past lives... well... is that really important, mostly when you have arrived to the teachings of the historical Buddha mostly when you do not have any other important moment for practice than the here and now...?

Lets think you are a believer of Karma and rebirth... do you really know how, where and whom you will be in a next life? Do you think that all your past Karma has been burned now and awake as a Buddha in your next life? What about a very negative Karma waiting for certain conditions to rippen in your next life? So, I think this is a very speculative field... and with no profit keeping your mind in that way because drives you away from the here and now and the great chance for mindfulness is, as always, lost.

I have never met any traditional Buddhist of any type, that I know of, who did not give karma and rebirth a place....

Maybe I am considering wrongly but Tibetan traditions give a big importance to karma and rebirth. Others do not. Most of Soto Zen schools do not give such importance to Karma and Rebirth and as far as I have understand here, the Theravada tradition (the Forest Tradition) practice is focused in the here and now abstaining from useless entanglements with such concepts.

Is this a new Western style/understanding of Buddhism?

No. I think is the most direct way to reach the teachings of the historical Buddha so to overcome suffering through taming the mind from ignorance, hate and greed.

So, practice just because... and leave the rest to work by itself...

[Kiliunjubl]

No. The practice is here and now

[JTS_tv]

What part of you is reborn?

I don't know. Perhaps some snippit of consciousness. I am not a debater so I can't prove any argument. I definitely believe in karma and rebirth, and I definitely believe we are supposed to help all sentient beings.

[machpamb]

Hi Kaarine, thanks for your response... I cannot take the time to give it the time it deserves right now. Hope to be able to do it in the near future