[Vomazoono]

at the beginning of our practice we have no knowledge or little knowledge of Buddha's Teaching so it is important to have a belief of rebirth (in heaven or hell)
then we will try not to do bad but do good in order to have a good rebirth and avoid bad rebirth (we can call this is 'kammassa-katha samma dhitti' or Worldly Right View

at later stage we will be able to understand Buddha's Teaching and will be able to have Noble Right View
then our perspective will be changed and we will try not to have a re-birth or attain enlightenment

before the Noble Right View, we are conditioned to re-born (from moment to moment as well as from this life to next life)
after getting the Noble Right View one will be able to change the conditioned arising
but
how long it will take until the full-enlightenment is depend on the persons character (how much he put effort on the work to be done)

[Tnzxovoz]

Originally Posted by Former Buddhist Monk What part of you is reborn?

I don't know. Perhaps some snippit of consciousness. I am not a debater so I can't prove any argument. I definitely believe in karma and rebirth, and I definitely believe we are supposed to help all sentient beings.



Oh, I don't want to start a debate about it. I was just curious about your understanding. There's a sutta in which the Buddha scolds a monk for teaching that consciousness is reborn, by the way.

Peace.

[OgrGlgHu]

There's a sutta in which the Buddha scolds a monk for teaching that consciousness is reborn, by the way.

Yes... in my understanding is a kind of flow of consciousness... Anyway, can you remember the sutta?

[Goodwin]

at the beginning of our practice...

thanks upekka, you have an interesting perspective...

[slimfifa]

Anyway, can you remember the sutta?

FBM is probably refering to MN 38, Kaarine.


http://www.leighb.com/mn38.htm

[poonnassunlix]

FBM is probably refering to MN 38, Kaarine.

Thanks Aloka

[bettingonosports]

I noticed discussion of the "demerit" that the mistaken bhikku acquired as a result of his misrepresentation of the teachings about consciousness. What exactly does that refer to, if not the sort of "what goes around comes around because merit and demerit sticks to you and follows you" karma that it would seem Buddha is mocking here?

I mean, if he's mocking the idea of rebirth, why mention demerit? I'm a little confused as to what else that can mean. I'd love to hear from someone a little savvier with this sutta than I am, if somebody has an explanation.

[PyncGyncliacy]

I can only guess demerit means:

(1) misrepresenting or slandering the Tathagata; and

(2) having wrong view that naturally does not side with liberation.

Kind regards

E

"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who slander the Tathagata."

Abhasita Sutta: What Was Not Said

[Immarsecice]

Originally Posted by Kaarine Alejandra Anyway, can you remember the sutta?

FBM is probably refering to MN 38, Kaarine.


http://www.leighb.com/mn38.htm
Yup.

[Agedprepdoock]

I can only guess demerit means:

(1) misrepresenting or slandering the Tathagata; and

(2) having wrong view that naturally does not side with liberation.

Kind regards

[gogona]

in my understanding is a kind of flow of consciousness

Flow of consciousness? Never heard of it

Consciousness, as I know it, is cognition at the sense bases. Which is why the Buddha talked about 6 types of consciousness. How can sensory cognition be a flow or a stream?

[dexterljohnthefinanceguy]

How can sensory cognition be a flow or a stream?

True, thanks Deshy...

[Elaltergephah]

Flow of consciousness? Never heard of it

I have heard it from some tibetan practitioners... not shure if I understand that correctly... seems not at all...

[mincbiori]

Originally Posted by Kaarine Alejandra in my understanding is a kind of flow of consciousness

Flow of consciousness? Never heard of it

Consciousness, as I know it, is cognition at the sense bases. Which is why the Buddha talked about 6 types of consciousness. How can sensory cognition be a flow or a stream? How can it be otherwise? Is it a fixed entity? Am I missing something? (That's very possible. I'm running a fever atm.)

[Muhabsssa]

I noticed discussion of the "demerit" that the mistaken bhikku acquired as a result of his misrepresentation of the teachings about consciousness. What exactly does that refer to, if not the sort of "what goes around comes around because merit and demerit sticks to you and follows you" karma that it would seem Buddha is mocking here?

I mean, if he's mocking the idea of rebirth, why mention demerit? I'm a little confused as to what else that can mean. I'd love to hear from someone a little savvier with this sutta than I am, if somebody has an explanation.

You may know of what's termed the Buddha's "Skill in Means". He spoke to people at their level of understanding and nudged them forwards a bit, as any good teacher does. Most of the Buddha's associates were coming from a background in Hinduism, as he did. For them, reincarnation was literally one's soul leaving the body at death and reinserting itself in another newborn life form. Rebirth is a kind of hijacking of that concept with the key being that there is no soul or even an enduring self in the first place. What, then, is reborn? Well, if you consider that selfhood is an illusion brought about by the collocation of the 6 senses, then nothing new comes into being at birth nor ends at death. Existence is an unbroken continuum of phenomena. The actions of what appears, fallaciously, to be an individual continue to produce results long after the dissolution of the elements that make up the body, sensations, consciousness, etc. One is nothing more than the phenomena, and phenomena condition future phenomena. In that sense, there is rebirth of phenomena, but it has nothing to do with one's soul/self being somehow magically teleported to the womb of an expecting being.

That is, the Buddha talked to people who believed in transmigration of the soul in their own terms. If you demand an exacting, literal interpretation of every sutta, regardless of context (most of which is lost), you'll run into innumerable contradictions. I haven't seen much evidence to support the common assumption that the Buddha ever intended to construct a complete and internally-consistent philosophical edifice, as Western philosophers have tried to do. Instead, he tried to point each person he dealt with in the right direction, based on where they were at the moment.

Seems to me that a discussion of rebirth in terms of a literal transmigration of a soul/self/essence or whatever would be tailored towards someone with only a rudimentary understanding of the Buddha's messages (dukkha, anicca, anatta). Other suttas directed towards those with more advanced understanding do not support the literal interpretation.


www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn48/sn48.041.than.html

and

seen and heard are the persons whose particular name is mentioned, but only the name
remains undecayed of the person that has passed away[1]. (808) //www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe10/sbe1036.htm


//www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe10/sbe1036.htm

[Info-phone]

How can it be otherwise? Is it a fixed entity? Am I missing something? (That's very possible. I'm running a fever atm.)

Not sure what you mean by consciousness as a stream or a flow. Could you elaborate more please?

When sense bases make contact with an external object the cognition that arises is consciousness. Obviously it cannot exist separate from a sense base and it doesn't sound like a fixed entity that flows or continues

[GalasaKoll]

One is nothing more than the phenomena, and phenomena condition future phenomena. In that sense, there is rebirth of phenomena, but it has nothing to do with one's soul/self being somehow magically teleported to the womb of an expecting being.

Thanks FBM,

This picture makes more sense... so this phenomena conditoning phenomena is what is meant by "flow"?

[Forex Autopilot]

I imagine there are quite a few different understandings of what is meant by "flow", so please don't take what I say as authoritative. According to Buddhist philosophy, which contradicts Hindu philosophy on this point, consciousness cannot exist without an object, or without some content. Consciousness is always consciousness of something. The consciousness that arises from contact ends as soon as the contact is broken, and it must be refreshed moment-to-moment (by sustained contact). That constant refreshing is the flow, much like a candle flame must be constantly fed by the wick and wax. You might visualize touching something that's warm. Heat from the warm object flows into your finger, conditioning the consciousness of it. At every moment of contact, there is an ongoing influx of heat, creating the sense of continuity.

A common error is to reify that experience into an entity, which is easy to do because of the way we use nouns for both concrete and abstract. Consciousness can't be a singular, fundamental entity because it consists of so many parts. Consciousness is a process, not a thing in itself. Therefore, when we say "consciousness of the heat", we're treating it as if it were a concrete existent, rather than an abstraction. For that matter, abstractions, too, are not fundamental existents, as they are conditioned by so many other elements.

[wgX44EEn]

Great! Thanks again FBM...

Consciousness is a process, not a thing in itself.

So, in this sense, as any process, seems to be a flow...

[Adeniinteme]

Great! Thanks again FBM... Grin

Quote from: Former Buddhist Monk on Today at 09:26:55 AM
Consciousness is a process, not a thing in itself.

So, in this sense, as any process, seems to be a flow...

Grin

Makes sense to me, a process cannot occur but over a period of time.

I think the idea of stream/flow of consciousness in Tibetan Buddhism is basically just referring to a series of conscious moments that are connected by cause & effect relationship. The "mind stream" as I understand it refers to
1) this cause and effect relationship between moments of consciousness
2) the perceived experience of continuity that an individual usually experiences