[DoctorDeryOne]

Sorry Aloka, I didn't see your post while answering...

[DariushPetresku]

Thanks Kaarine


I wonder if perhaps phoenix would like to comment on anything ?

[YpciJQdo]

thank you all for your replies.

sorry, came to net after 24 hours d/t busy schedule and so late to acknowledge.

i got the impression from the posts that understanding of the dependent origination with respect to elimination of ignorance and suffering is all that matters and hence the twelve links of dependent origination is the most relevant. that was a very good point indeed, coz buddhism is solely aimed towards ending suffering as evidenced by the four noble truths.

when i mentioned dependent origination in my post, i didnt specifically mean it for the twelve links but rather in a more general sense , more like interdependent coorigination for all phenomena. it was more of an analytical exercise on emptiness of all phenomena. i was wondering if emptiness can ever be communicated properly within the limitation of conventional language as the expression of emptiness in language through the use of words for which our conventional mind already assumes some inherencies makes it a very difficult job i guess.

may be it is something to be experienced directly in meditation to be fully convinced of. if all phenomena lack an essence, how can we make the statement" everything is empty because it arises dependent upon so many other factors", when infact there is no other factor to point to, each factor vanishing instantly as we point to it by applying the same reason. yet, phenomena are still manifesting dependent on phantom factors which inturn depend on other phantom factors and so on ad infinitum. so when we say "phenomena exist dependent on factors", are we supposed to take it at face value as it is and dont go further than that ,it being a futile exercise?

or maybe, as posted earlier, realising the emptiness of mind is all that matters rather than delving into the emptiness of external phenomena.

i thank everybody for their replies and the links provided. i am yet to go through all the links. going through the posts has been pretty enriching so far. i am sure the links will definitely add on to that.

peace.

[Glanteeignile]

welcome phoenix

further, as you seem to say, one will get stuck attempting to reason the infinite emptiness of a "tree". it can be reasoned:

1. there is no tree because it is composed bark, roots, leaves, etc,

2. there are no bark, roots, leaves, etc, because they are composed of the earth, water, fire elements, etc;

3. there is no earth, water, fire elements because they is composed of various atoms;

But then one gets stuck because these causal factors cannot be broken down any further

so the Buddha regarded it sufficient the body is broken down into earth, wind (breath), fire (warmth) & water so the mind can see directly this physical body is not permanent, not something 'solid' and not a 'self'

i would keep it stretching further to say that there are no atoms, no subatomic particles, no quarks, gluons,positrons, photons, bosons and so on. the question for me is not only about disintegration into finer particles and hence the establishment of emptiness based on that but also (and primarily so) the question of the very existence of any particle no matter or how small or fundamental or ultimate.

the theory of emptiness will dismiss the possibility of any such fundamental particle, be it atom or wind or earth or fire in its ultimate essence. even the most minute particle wont be partless as it will have upper, lower, left, right etc parts but owing to not only its aggregatory character, but also upon dependence of the perceiving subject or other intervening medium, its identity is actualised.

if we are to analyse anything, it will fail to exist or maintain its identity on its own. a dog will not appreciate the colour of grass as green like we do being colour blind and so there are two dependent realities of the same entity. we cannot say this is the ultimate colour of grass. of course at night it will appear black to both irrespective of the species difference depending upon the intervening medium of light. but if we are to investigate at what is causing the difference, difference in retina will vanish once we analyse retina in the ultimate sense, photons will vanish once we analyse for the essence of photon or light and so on, essence or true self lacking in every thing.

your thoughts.......

[Serttyfd]

your thoughts.......

please accept me as your disciple the quarks, gluons,positrons, photons, bosons, etc, vanished my mind

but seriously, what you have written is without doubt essence of causality. however, does a "true self" actually exist in these subatomic particles, quarks, gluons, positrons, photons, bosons, etc,? do these phenomena generate "self" thoughts? to me, it is the human mind that generates "self" thoughts based in what it feels, craves & clings to possessively

but, then, sometimes the mind can impute 'self' onto external and even material things. the mind can get angry at a computer when it malfunctions as though the computer is a 'self', screaming 'I hate you' at an inanimate computer

as you have alluded to, "thing-ness" can certainly vanish, which can bring the mind to a state of "non-being" & clear consciousness. to be thoroughly familiar with "non-being" is certainly something highly recommended

kind regards

[Vitoethiche]

please accept me as your disciple the quarks, gluons,positrons, photons, bosons, etc, vanished my mind

hehehe....those are a few remnants of "a brief history of time" read many years ago. so let us both bow down to the great Stephen Hawking himself.

as you have alluded to, "thing-ness" can certainly vanish, which can bring the mind to a state of "non-being" & clear consciousness. to be thoroughly familiar with "non-being" is certainly something highly recommended

completely agree. even in the 12 links, the very first link which initiates the whole cycle is ignorance and cutting off the repeated play of this cycle will require addressing ignorance right at its heart. what is the most basic or sticky or fundamental ignorance we are harbouring? when the buddha or the great masters say that it is grasping at a true self or an inherent essence for everything, it does make a lot of sense......hence attachment, hence anger, fear, hatred, jealousy and so on as we are clinging on to objects as existing from their own side.

i think understanding of interdependent coorigination even at an intellectual level from the begenning through proper analysis definitely paves way for its direct realisation through meditation later on in the path if the practices of morality and compassion are simultaneously carried on to supplement the analytical and meditative practice.

therefore, since ignorance is at the heart of dependent origination, the very fetter that keeps us bound to samsara and not realising the lack of "inherent existence" or emptiness of phenomena is regarded as the most ignorant view, any exercise, whether analytical or contemplative aimed towards realising the emptiness of phenomena, will serve as a valuable tool in gradually opening the gates of wisdom and severing the chain of links IMO. therefore i cannot agree more when you say "to be thoroughly familiar with "non-being" is certainly something highly recommended ".

however, my confusion has still held its ground. the statement "everything exists depending upon an infinite number of other factors" seems to me very self-contradictory loaded with assumptions of those factors for granted without further investigation. perhaps its the limitiation of conventional language in expressing emptiness. if we search for the supporting factor, it disintegrates into a number of other supporting factors, each subsequent supporting factor disintegrating as we analyse in a neverending process. if there is no particular "basis" designated by the word factor, how can we even take the statement "everything exists depending upon a multitude of other factors" as a valid one in the first place? or is it just a skillful tool used for our conventional minds to have a working idea of emptiness in the begenning? it makes me wonder whether description of emptiness is beyond the scope of conventional language.

it is just amazing to realise that the world (or phenomena) is somehow able to manifest itself even when there is no ultimate essence to anything in it, nor in any other things held to be responsible for the identity of any one particular thing. its almost scary!

[lXvtm0ox]

All existence contain with basic elements – energy, matter and space.

Basic elements would subject to conditional phenomena – balance and imbalance.

Under balance phenomena, 3 basic elements start to integrate with each other to create aggregate activities.

Under imbalance phenomena, 3 basic elements start to disintegrate from each other to create segregate activities.

The principle in effect: -

A stream of balance phenomena would conjure up aggregate activity;
A stream of aggregate activities would conjure up information;
A stream of information would conjure up memory;
A stream of memories would conjure up ignorance;
A stream of ignorance would conjure up volitional impulse;
A stream of volitional impulses would conjure up consciousness;
A stream of consciousness would conjure up body and mind;
A stream of body and mind would conjure up six sense bases;
A stream of six sense bases would conjure up contact;
A stream of contacts would conjure up feeling;
A stream of feelings would conjure up craving;
A stream of cravings would conjure up clinging;
A stream of clinging would conjure up becoming;
A stream of becoming would conjure up birth;
A stream of births would conjure up aging;
A stream of aging would conjure up death;
A stream of deaths would conjure up segregate activity;
A stream of segregate activities would conjure up imbalance phenomenon;
A stream of imbalance phenomena would conjure up new balance phenomenon.

The Buddha has recommended for one to always see and lives in the present, neither in the past nor in the future. When one lives well in the present, one would lead to the cessation of memories of the past and this would subsequently lead to the cessation of ignorance in the future.

The principle in effect: -

The seeing of Ultimate Truth leads to the cessation of balance phenomenon;
The cessation of balance phenomenon leads to the cessation of aggregate activity;
The cessation of aggregate activity leads to cessation of information;
The cessation of information leads to cessation of memory;
The cessation of memory leads to the cessation of ignorance;
The cessation of ignorance leads to the cessation of volitional impulse;
The cessation of volitional impulse leads to the cessation of consciousness;
The cessation of consciousness leads to the cessation of body and mind;
The cessation of body and mind lead to the cessation of six sense bases;
The cessation of six sense bases lead to the cessation of contact;
The cessation of contact leads to the cessation of feeling;
The cessation of feeling leads to the cessation of craving;
The cessation of craving leads to the cessation of clinging;
The cessation of clinging leads to the cessation of becoming;
The cessation of becoming leads to the cessation of birth;
The cessation of birth leads to the cessation of aging;
The cessation of aging leads to the cessation of death;
The cessation of death leads to the cessation of segregate activity;
The cessation of segregate activity leads to the cessation of imbalance phenomenon;
The cessation of imbalance phenomenon leads to the cessation of conditional phenomenon;
The cessation of conditional phenomenon leads to the cessation of time;
The cessation of time leads to unconditional freedom of basic elements - energy, matter and space.

Ultimately, energy, matter and space elements would sustain in pure and permanency with absence of time – that is Nibbana.

[OlgaBorovikovva]

The concept of Śūnyatā (emptiness) in Buddhism has always been the main subject of confusion among the followers. We need to understand that long before the rising of Buddha Dhamma 2,600 years ago, the realm of existence already running its course as according to the natural bounding laws. The wise Buddha has seen through the reality of it, recommended with permanent remedies to liberate one from the natural bounding law.

So, what is the so-called natural bounding law? It is the law of balancing that dictates the circumstances of equilibrium in nature. Nature in itself is full with wonders and has already reached a saturated level of complexity that encompassed all sorts of activities or processes such as aggregation, segregation, evolution, mutation, assimilation, etc. In other words, all of these activities or processes have had happened in a manner long before we could have the slightest opportunity to realise it. This scenario is the rising of ignorant aspect in the realm of existence.

As a consequence, we always tend to make observation or take view on events in the context of ‘result’ perspective or the ‘ignorant’ point of view. There are plenty of examples for observation or view on events derived from this conventional perspective i.e. formation, suffering, disease, sickness, terrorism, calamity, existence, etc.

Nevertheless, the wise Buddha has realised these circumstances and recommended with a paradigm shift to it i.e. for one to make observation or take view on events from the context of ‘cause’ perspective or the ‘awakened’ point of view instead. And it is from this new perspective that one could liberate from the cyclic influence of conditional phenomena. One of the good examples is the introduction of the cardinal doctrine of dependent origination.

As mentioned earlier, nature has already reached a saturated level of complexity and this circumstance has created difficulties for one to observe events free from defilements. If we could unwind all events that have taken place in the nature, we could realise the origin of it i.e. all activities, events or processes would evolve around the orientation of energy or matter in a plane called space at all times.

At the end of the day, we could see and know that every existence (sentient, non-sentient, or any material things) is nothing but merely basic elements (energy, matter and space) that would orientate as according to the conditional phenomena. This is the correct understanding about the concept of emptiness in Buddhism.

In other words, we could mention that ‘form’ entity in itself is delusive in nature that is generated out of the ‘ignorant’ point of view or from the context of ‘result’ perspective. We could not view form as an entity because it is an appearance, though not illusive, but devoid of inherent existence and varies under the influence of phenomenal conditions.

Rightly, the Buddha recommended one to see all things as they truly are (not as they delusively are). And it is through the philosophy of emptiness could one begin to experience the cleansing of ignorant aspect. Once the ignorant aspect has been extinguished or neutralised, the awaken aspect would arise concurrently.

An act of emptying = an act of extinguishing = an act of neutralising ≠ an act of annihilating.

The principle in effect: -

Seeing Dhamma is seeing Buddha;
Seeing Buddha is seeing Dhamma.

Seeing Buddha is seeing Nibbana;
Seeing Nibbana is seeing Buddha.

Seeing Emptiness is seeing Form;
Seeing Form is seeing Emptiness.

Seeing Energy is seeing Matter;
Seeing Matter is seeing Energy.

Seeing Cause is seeing Effect;
Seeing Effect is seeing Cause.

Seeing Action is seeing Reaction;
Seeing Reaction is seeing Action.

[M1zdL0hh]

Hi takso,

You've already posted this identical information from #27 before somewhere, I'm sure.

Perhaps sometime you would also like to say more about your attainment claims made on another forum just recently :


1. Control and manipulate weather condition - turning stormy to fine weather & vice versa in an instance moment.

2. Postpone death - stopping the passing of cancer patients (end stage); doctors were surprised patients still could walk and talk freely without pain - beyond the general expection - until my green light to let them go to the afterlife.

3. Granting wishes - instigating pregnancy - from infertile to fertile; wishes of striking lotteries.

4. Control machine - turning malfunction to function by a simple touch on it.

5. Control rebirth - deciding when and where the rebirth of an individual would take place - that individual was my father.

6. Communicating & seeing spirits - always surrounded by so-called angels or roaming spirits - come and go at all times; these spirits did provide protection from any calamities befalling myself. At wishes, I could command spirits for specific tasks, etc.

7. Flying to places - my dreams always come true. Pre-visiting to places in dreams before actual events taken place.

8. Prophesying future events - seeing 9-11;
seeing American war in the desert; seeing the death of Benazir Bhutto; seeing the death of MJ; seeing the death of Osama;

seeing earthquake and nuclear disasters in Tokyo; seeing big flood in Australia, seeing the fate of individuals in a lifetime, seeing armagaedon.... and also here when you joined us last year:

http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries...ers-Chat/page2


Anway, sorry for going off topic - back to the discussion !

[ricochettty]

Hi Phoneix, may we leave Stephen Hawkings out of the discussion ?, as I am not a fan of his, though if reading " A brief history of time " was beneficial for you, that is good - lol. Language certain seems to me to have limitations in it's ability to express understanding .... and my own capacity to conceptualise and express what I experience is also limited .... the best I can often come up with, is that we know what we know from our investigation of our experience.
From the link Aloka-D gave us in post #9 - from Ajahn Chah, “The Training of the Heart” in Food for the Heart - this awareness is expressed well without limitation -

" This is the way it is. You detach. You let go. Whenever there is any feeling of clinging, we detach from it, because we know that that very feeling is just as it is. It didn’t come along especially to annoy us. We might think that it did, but in truth it just is that way. If we start to think and consider it further, that, too, is just as it is. If we let go, then form is merely form, sound is merely sound, odour is merely odour, taste is merely taste, touch is merely touch and the heart is merely the heart. It’s similar to oil and water. If you put the two together in a bottle, they won’t mix because of the difference of their nature… "

[cheaploans]

any exercise, whether analytical or contemplative aimed towards realising the emptiness of phenomena, will serve as a valuable tool in gradually opening the gates of wisdom and severing the chain of links IMO

Hi phoenix,
Are you familiar with the doctrine of the two truths - the conventional and ultimate?

[sbrpkkl]

thank you all for your replies.

sorry, came to net after 24 hours d/t busy schedule and so late to acknowledge.

i got the impression from the posts that understanding of the dependent origination with respect to elimination of ignorance and suffering is all that matters and hence the twelve links of dependent origination is the most relevant. that was a very good point indeed, coz buddhism is solely aimed towards ending suffering as evidenced by the four noble truths.

Paticcasamuppada is more like "deep-running theory" than a "this is all that matters, just figure this out" sort of thing.


when i mentioned dependent origination in my post, i didnt specifically mean it for the twelve links but rather in a more general sense , more like interdependent coorigination for all phenomena. Paticcasamuppada is not an explanation of "interdependent coorigination for all phenomena" -- that is a popular way to imagine it, but it is a way wrong turn from which many never recover. Instead it is an explanation of the arising of suffering due to the influence of ignorance on a person -- a "deep-theory" exercise corresponding to the first two Noble Truths: there is this problem of suffering, and this is a model of the process of how it arises.


...it was more of an analytical exercise on emptiness of all phenomena. Neither does paticcasamuppada attempt to explain sunnata.

i was wondering if emptiness can ever be communicated properly within the limitation of conventional language as the expression of emptiness in language through the use of words for which our conventional mind already assumes some inherencies makes it a very difficult job i guess. Another wrong turn. The Buddha expained sunnata thus: Nothing whatsoever should be thought of as "me" or "mine". Very simple. No hocus-pocus necessary.



....may be it is something to be experienced directly in meditation to be fully convinced of. if all phenomena lack an essence, That sort of philosophical speculative view is what the Buddha was trying to get away from.

...how can we make the statement" everything is empty because it arises dependent upon so many other factors", when infact there is no other factor to point to, each factor vanishing instantly as we point to it by applying the same reason. yet, phenomena are still manifesting dependent on phantom factors which inturn depend on other phantom factors and so on ad infinitum. so when we say "phenomena exist dependent on factors", are we supposed to take it at face value as it is and dont go further than that ,it being a futile exercise?
This is the sort of plot cul-de-sac that the Buddha was working to help us get away from. Why head-trip over things one can only speculate upon, when ones time could be better spent doing something useful like working to destroy selfishness, greed and hatred in oneself.

or maybe, as posted earlier, realising the emptiness of mind is all that matters rather than delving into the emptiness of external phenomena.
More irrelevant head-trip stuff. All "the mind" -- whatever that is-- is "empty of" is "me" or "what is mine".

i thank everybody for their replies and the links provided. i am yet to go through all the links. going through the posts has been pretty enriching so far. i am sure the links will definitely add on to that.

peace. "Going through the links" isn't nearly so important as understanding that it is a sort of "Garbage In, Garbage Out" mental model, a road map from the first to the last: "Ignorance --> Me --> Suffering". "Garbage In --> Me --> Garbage Out". Easy. No need to get hung up on irrelevant and tangential speculative metaphysical and ontological wrong turns. Simply "Oh -- Garbage In, Garbage Out", and here is the way to stop this sort of mental cycle: the Noble Eightfold Path. Easy."

[dWSOj26H]

No need to get hung up on irrelevant and tangential speculative metaphysical and ontological wrong turns.

Unfortunately this sort of speculative elaboration is what frequently one founds in some regular "best-sellers" books that talk about "Buddhism" and are at hand at the shelf of a book store. That is why I highly recommend... Go to the Pali.

[Caunnysup]

completely agree. even in the 12 links, the very first link which initiates the whole cycle is ignorance and cutting off the repeated play of this cycle will require addressing ignorance right at its heart.

One who is not influenced by ignorance still has sankhara, vinnana, namarupa, salayatana, phasso, and vedana. These things are naturally with us until the day we die. The influence of ignorance on these processes causes tanha, craving, to arise in one. From tanha the rest of the "links" arise. Cut off ignorance and you cut off tanha, and none of the others will arise. This state is called paticcanirodha, which unfortunately doesn't get much attention in most Buddhist circles because it does not conform to presumptions of reincarnation and hindu-style karma.

what is the most basic or sticky or fundamental ignorance we are harbouring? Ignorance of the Four Noble Truths.

....when the buddha or the great masters say that it is grasping at a true self or an inherent essence for everything, The Buddha does not turn his Dhamma into a speculative ontology of "nothing has inherent existence". That is a later contrivance.

it does make a lot of sense......hence attachment, hence anger, fear, hatred, jealousy and so on as we are clinging on to objects as existing from their own side. The Buddha explained that these arise through conditioning: wanting to have things that are pleasant, wanting to be rid of the unpleasant, boredom with what is neither. The Buddha never spoke of any sort of idea of "things existing from their own side". He called speculation over whether "everything exists/everything does not exist/everything both exists and does not exist/everything neither exists nor does not exist" a "wilderness of views, a thicket of views, a canker, an arrow", which does not lead to the stilling of anger, fear, hatred, jealousy.

i think understanding of interdependent coorigination even at an intellectual level from the begenning through proper analysis definitely paves way for its direct realisation through meditation later on in the path if the practices of morality and compassion are simultaneously carried on to supplement the analytical and meditative practice. I think this is true. Now you have been handed that understanding" "Garbage In, Garbage Out", "Ignoracne In, Suffering Out". Worry no more, go forth and do the good things.


therefore, since ignorance is at the heart of dependent origination, the very fetter that keeps us bound to samsara That "samsra" being unskillful habitual patterns of thought and action that cause suffering for oneself and others....cosmological speculations need not apply....


and not realising the lack of "inherent existence" or emptiness of phenomena is regarded as the most ignorant view, ....not realising that things are "not me, not mine" is plenty, and as far as that goes. Any further elaboration (metaphysical, cosmological, ontological, etc...) is an irrelevant thicket of views.

any exercise, whether analytical or contemplative aimed towards realising the emptiness of phenomena, will serve as a valuable tool in gradually opening the gates of wisdom and severing the chain of links IMO. therefore i cannot agree more when you say "to be thoroughly familiar with "non-being" is certainly something highly recommended ". "Nothing exists" is a thicket of views. Better to understand "This is not me, this is not mine, this is not my self". Even better simply to cultivate the Path: Right view (4NT), Right Intention, Right speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration.


....however, my confusion has still held its ground. ....because you stepped into a thicket of views. The Path is right here. You can still get on.

....the statement "everything exists depending upon an infinite number of other factors" seems to me very self-contradictory loaded with assumptions of those factors for granted without further investigation. Yes, precisely because it is a speculative view, a plot cul-de-sac. It is irrelevant to the quenching of suffering, which is all the Buddha really set out to teach. The Path is right here. You can still get on.

....perhaps its the limitiation of conventional language in expressing emptiness. No, that idea is a trap too. It's like saying, "you can't see The Emperor's New Clothes because you are not looking properly". The statement that trouble you doesn't wash because it doesn't wash, rather than because "it can't be expressed in 'conventional language'". The Buddha taught everything he taught using language and conventions. And "conventional language".

if we search for the supporting factor, it disintegrates into a number of other supporting factors, each subsequent supporting factor disintegrating as we analyse in a neverending process. if there is no particular "basis" designated by the word factor, how can we even take the statement "everything exists depending upon a multitude of other factors" as a valid one in the first place? or is it just a skillful tool used for our conventional minds to have a working idea of emptiness in the begenning? Congratulations -- you see through the speculation, and can dismiss it as invalid and irrelevant to the problem of eradicating fear, anger, greed, and jealousy. But the Path is right here. You can still get on.


it makes me wonder whether description of emptiness is beyond the scope of conventional language. It is illogical. You have done well and refuted it yourself. You can move on to the 8FP unencumbered by speculative view and superstition. Breathe easy.


it is just amazing to realise that the world (or phenomena) is somehow able to manifest itself even when there is no ultimate essence to anything in it, nor in any other things held to be responsible for the identity of any one particular thing. its almost scary! That's not really a realisation, that is a speculative cosmological view. Wrong turn...the Path is the other way, away from speculative view and superstition, and toward simply letting go of anger, hatred, fear, jealousy, and greed. No complicated speculative views to worry about. Just this Noble Eightfold Path. Easy....

[PeterPatrickJohn]

Unfortunately this sort of speculative elaboration is what frequently one founds in some regular "best-sellers" books that talk about "Buddhism" and are at hand at the shelf of a book store.

I know........


That is why I highly recommend... Go to the Pali.

[njfeedd3w]

All existence contain with basic elements – energy, matter and space.

Basic elements would subject to conditional phenomena – balance and imbalance.

Under balance phenomena, 3 basic elements start to integrate with each other to create aggregate activities.

Under imbalance phenomena, 3 basic elements start to disintegrate from each other to create segregate activities.

The principle in effect: -

A stream of balance phenomena would conjure up aggregate activity;
A stream of aggregate activities would conjure up information;






The cessation of imbalance phenomenon leads to the cessation of conditional phenomenon;
The cessation of conditional phenomenon leads to the cessation of time;
The cessation of time leads to unconditional freedom of basic elements - energy, matter and space.

That doesn't make any sense.


Ultimately, energy, matter and space elements would sustain in pure and permanency with absence of time; that is Nibbana.
Perhaps in the minds of wanderers of other sects. The Buddha taught nothing like the above hyperbole.

[bomondus]

The concept of Sunyata (emptiness) in Buddhism has always been the main subject of confusion among the followers.

...because Brahmins keep trying to make it out to be a cosmological/metaphysical/ontological speculative view.

We need to understand that long before the rising of Buddha Dhamma 2,600 years ago, the realm of existence already running its course as according to the natural bounding laws. The wise Buddha has seen through the reality of it, recommended with permanent remedies to liberate one from the natural bounding law.

So, what is the so-called natural bounding law? It is the law of balancing that dictates the circumstances of equilibrium in nature. Nature in itself is full with wonders and has already reached a saturated level of complexity that encompassed all sorts of activities or processes such as aggregation, segregation, evolution, mutation, assimilation, etc. In other words, all of these activities or processes have had happened in a manner long before we could have the slightest opportunity to realise it. This scenario is the rising of ignorant aspect in the realm of existence.........
The Buddha didn't teach any of that.

[Bobobsdo]

Hi Phoneix, may we leave Stephen Hawkings out of the discussion ?, as I am not a fan of his.....

I *like* Hawkings. Let's talk about him...

[ionitiesk]

know from our investigation of our experience.
From the link Aloka-D gave us in post #9 - from Ajahn Chah, “The Training of the Heart” in Food for the Heart"...

Hi Andy, as Phoenix had mentioned emptiness #1, the part that I was drawing attention to at the link #9 was by Ajahn Amaro and was about emptiness (and quotes Buddhadasa) as follows:



Emptiness

We come now to the quality of emptiness. First, it is of some significance to note that although the adjectival noun suññata (Sanskrit: sunyata), or “emptiness,” is used in the Theravada scriptures, it is far outweighed by its humble cousin, the adjective suñña, “empty.”

In later, Northern Buddhist traditions, sunyata took on not only a central position in the teachings on liberation (for example in the Prajña Paramita Sutras, the Heart Sutra, and the Vajra Sutra) and the Middle Way (as in Nagarjuna’s Madhyamaka philosophy, uniting emptiness and causality), but it also took on the attributes of some kind of quasi-mystical substance or realm—not intentionally or doctrinally even, but more through a subtle and unconscious reification. It became something that is a nothing, that then was worshiped and deified as a universal panacea.

This is not to say that all such teachings on emptiness are false or useless—not at all. It is just to say that, like any verbal formulation of Dhamma, if grasped incorrectly they can obstruct rather than aid progress on the path.

If the concept of emptiness is understood and used as a skillful means, it is clear that it could not be any kind of thing-in-itself. Any tendency to incline the attitude in that direction would thus be seen as falling wide of the mark.

If a person were to say that suññata is a material element, his or her friends would die laughing. Some people would say that it is an immaterial or formless element, and here the Noble Ones (ariya) would die laughing. Voidness is neither a material nor an immaterial element, but is a third kind of element that lies beyond the ken of ordinary people. The Buddha called it “quenching element” or “cessation element” (nirodha-dhatu).

The words “material element” (vatthu-dhatu) or “form element” (rupa-dhatu) refer to materiality in visible forms, sounds, odors, tastes, or tactile objects. “Formless element” (arupa-dhatu) refers to the mind and heart, to mental processes, and to the thoughts and experiences that arise in the mind.

There is only one kind of element not included in these two categories, an element that is the complete antithesis and annihilation of them all.

Consequently, the Buddha sometimes called it “cool-ness element” (Nibbana-dhatu), sometimes “quenching element” (nirodha-dhatu), and sometimes “deathless element” (amatadhatu)."

~ Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree



In the Pali scriptures suñña simply means “empty.” It describes the quality of absence—an absence contained within a particular defining form, rather than some kind of absolute value. Every space has its poetics: this personality is empty of self, this glass is empty of water, this room is empty of people—there is a definite voidness in some respects, but it is also shaped by its context.

The pair of silences during the opening bars of Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony are just silence, but the particular poetry of those silences is shaped by the notes before and after.

Without the glass there would not be any emptiness; with-out the other musical notes those moments would not be silent—that is to say, the emptiness only exists in relationship to its vessel, whatever that may be: a personality, a glass, a room, a musical phrase. It’s just a way of speaking about form and space using relative language.

Thus from the Theravada point of view, the concept of emptiness is quite prosaic. It lacks the intrinsic mystical quality imputed to it in some of the Northern Buddhist scriptures. However, it becomes more meaningful in terms of liberation as it is almost always used in the context of “empty of self and the property of a self.” If that absence is recognized then the heart is certainly inclining to awakening.

The environment of pure awareness is cultivated through a realization of emptiness; it then embodies that characteristic as a result of its perfection. Radiance is another of the principal qualities that manifests as that knowing is purified.

Bhikkhus, there are these four radiances—what are the four? The radiance of the moon, the radiance of the sun, the radiance of fire, the radiance of wisdom (paññapabha)... Bhikkhus, among these four, the radiance of wisdom is indeed the most excellent.

~ Anguttara Nikaya 4.142


These three attributes—knowing, emptiness, and the radiant mind—weave through each other and are mutually reflective and supportive. In a way, they are like the fluidity, wetness, and coolness of a glass of water: three qualities that are distinct yet inseparable.

http://www.abhayagiri.org/main/article/2148/

[pBiRXp8u]

Three emptiness Suttas can be found here, translated by Bhante Sujato from the Samyuktagama. The second one there uses paticcasamuppada as a template.