[RonPeeredob]

On the subject of kamma, I was looking at some interesting comments from the late Ajahn Buddhadasa in his essay "Anatta and Rebirth" on page 5.


..."The second question is: If there is no self, then who acts? Who produces all these physical, verbal, and mental kammas (actions) and receives the result of those actions (kamma-fruit)?

Who experiences happiness and dukkha? The "who" is "nobody." There isn't a need for anybody. In fact, we need not use the word "who" at all. The mind can feel, be aware, and think. It has its needs and can make the body act or the mouth speak accordingly. The mind thinks and as a result of that thinking there is an action: a physical, verbal or mental action (kamma).

The mind that thinks is not-self, the body that acts is not self,the mouth that speaks is not self, so that action is not self. The action really happens, but it is not self.

Then there's a reaction that happens as kamma-fruit. If it affects anything, just that thing is the receiver of the kamma-fruit. But really, if we speak correctly and straight-forwardly, there is nobody who receives the fruit of kamma. Although a reaction occurs, it happens to the next thing. It is a process of one thing or
event conditioning the next.

If we look carefully, we see that there is one mind that thinks, that has the intention behind the action, but the reaction is experienced by a different mind.

From one moment to the next it is a completely different mind. It is never the same mind, let alone a self or a "who." ("Who" implies self.)

This citta(mind) is the maker of the kamma; the fruit of kamma happens to that (next) citta. It isn't the same citta anymore. Still, without any atta, the citta can make kamma, it can act. And the citta which isn't atta can experience the fruit of kamma. Whether happiness or dukkha is experienced, there is just mind experiencing it.

One doesn't need an atta, there is only experience. There is only foolishness or
intelligence. Take it as happy, it's happiness (sukha); take it as dukkha, it's dukkha. The mind alone feels sukha and dukkha, it doesn't need an atta. Thus we say that "nobody" makes kamma. If we speak in line with Buddhist principles, "nobody makes kamma." Although there is the acting of kamma, there is
nobody who makes it, or receives its fruit, or is the happy one or the miserable one.

There's merely citta together with body; that's all that's needed for experience. And all of it is not-self."


http://das-buddhistische-haus.de/pag...nd_Rebirth.pdf

[klubneras]

On the subject of kamma, I was looking at some interesting comments from the late Ajahn Buddhadasa in his essay "Anatta and Rebirth" on page 5.


..."The second question is: If there is no self, then who acts? Who produces all these physical, verbal, and mental kammas (actions) and receives the result of those actions (kamma-fruit)?

Who experiences happiness and dukkha? The "who" is "nobody." There isn't a need for anybody. In fact, we need not use the word "who" at all. The mind can feel, be aware, and think. It has its needs and can make the body act or the mouth speak accordingly. The mind thinks and as a result of that thinking there is an action: a physical, verbal or mental action (kamma).

The mind that thinks is not-self, the body that acts is not self,the mouth that speaks is not self, so that action is not self. The action really happens, but it is not self.

Then there's a reaction that happens as kamma-fruit. If it affects anything, just that thing is the receiver of the kamma-fruit. But really, if we speak correctly and straight-forwardly, there is nobody who receives the fruit of kamma. Although a reaction occurs, it happens to the next thing. It is a process of one thing or
event conditioning the next.

If we look carefully, we see that there is one mind that thinks, that has the intention behind the action, but the reaction is experienced by a different mind.

From one moment to the next it is a completely different mind. It is never the same mind, let alone a self or a "who." ("Who" implies self.)

This citta(mind) is the maker of the kamma; the fruit of kamma happens to that (next) citta. It isn't the same citta anymore. Still, without any atta, the citta can make kamma, it can act. And the citta which isn't atta can experience the fruit of kamma. Whether happiness or dukkha is experienced, there is just mind experiencing it.

One doesn't need an atta, there is only experience. There is only foolishness or
intelligence. Take it as happy, it's happiness (sukha); take it as dukkha, it's dukkha. The mind alone feels sukha and dukkha, it doesn't need an atta. Thus we say that "nobody" makes kamma. If we speak in line with Buddhist principles, "nobody makes kamma." Although there is the acting of kamma, there is
nobody who makes it, or receives its fruit, or is the happy one or the miserable one.

There's merely citta together with body; that's all that's needed for experience. And all of it is not-self."


http://das-buddhistische-haus.de/pag...nd_Rebirth.pdf

Awesome!

[ZIDouglas]

Dear friends,

I have revived this topic because I thought that it would be worthwhile to read what Ajahn Buddhadasa had to say about kamma here:


KAMMA IN BUDDHISM



" As Buddhists, we must understand kamma(action and the result of action) as it is explained in Buddhism. We should not blindly follow the kamma teachings of other religions; otherwise, we will pitifully spin around according to kamma without being able to get beyond its power or realise its end.

Why do we need to know the essence of kamma? Because our lives are inseperable from it and happen according to it. To be more precise, we can say that life is actually a stream of kamma. Desire to do deeds (kamma) causes on to perform actions and receive the results of those actions; then, desire to do deeds arises again and again endlessly.
Therefore, life is merely a pattern of kamma. If we rightly understand kamma, we can lead our lives at peace, without any problems or suffering."

Continued here:
http://das-buddhistische-haus.de/pag...n_Buddhism.pdf

Worth noting:

" Nowadays wrong teachings concerning kamma are publicized in books by various writers under titles such as "Kamma and Rebirth". Although they are presented in the name of Buddhism, they are actually about kamma and rebirth as understood in Hinduism. So the right teaching of Buddhism is misrepresented. "

[brorialsibers]

Buddhadasa's essay "Anatta and Rebirth" might also be of interest here as well:

http://das-buddhistische-haus.de/pag...nd_Rebirth.pdf

[Qdcqxffs]

Buddhadasa's essay "Anatta and Rebirth" might also be of interest here as well:

I already mentioned the 'Anatta and Rebirth' essay with the link in #21

[WeightWatchyshow]

Buddhadasa's essay "Anatta and Rebirth" might also be of interest here as well:

Great document Stuka:

Second page paragraphs 2 though 5 have given me the confirmation of what I have always called a "psychological need" for mankind to believe in something that is eternal so that the mind can abide there and delight with it. Thou when this atta has an instinctual root is why it becomes so threatening to accept anatta even when it is correctly understood.

At the fourth paragraph, Ajahn Buddhadasa tells about a kind of Cultural teaching which we call in Anthropology a "True Self" narrative which from it is difficult to take distance and understand that is something we have been told again and again.

Thanks,

[ssiikmuz]

Curiously, at page 3, Buddhadasa is doing a very detailed explanation about atta and anatta. In zen we are told, for this same purpose, that a rose is not a rose because it is a rose. This last rose is very different as the first one. The first rose is understood by the atta doctrine explained at first by Buddhadasa, then the second rose is the rose of the Nihilists, so then comes the last Rose, the one which the Buddha twirled passing on the silent teaching to the very first Zen ancestor, Mahakashapa.

[dupratac]

Dear friends,

I have revived this topic because I thought that it would be worthwhile to read what Ajahn Buddhadasa had to say about kamma here:

At page 3, the paragraph where is told that Kamma is attachment or Burden, remembers me the discipline of Shikantaza: to sit just because.

[KojlinMakolvin]

As I understand Kamma, if one performs an intentional action that is unskillfull then it leads to mental world of discomfort in some way whenever the ego consciousness is born


So say there is intent to steal and it is performed, following along the line of Dependent Co-Arising there will be birth of an "I" in a mental state of anguish


Thats my basic understanding anyway

[Nidsstese]

Kamma was the main part of the teaching I struggled with but I have just had a breakthrough with it. I know the Buddha defined Kamma as "intentional action" however I always took it to mean that intentional action produces kamma and thus fell back into Hinduism again and again

However I know get what the Buddha is saying. Kamma IS intentional action. So when reading suttas you can replace the word "Kamma" with "intention". I have already found this has improved my reading of suttas


For example


"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the passing away and re-appearance of beings. He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, and mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, and mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — he sees beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. This, too, is how striving is fruitful, how exertion is fruitful.
Can be read as


"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the passing away and re-appearance of beings. He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their Intentional action: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, and mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, and mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — he sees beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their Intentional Action. This, too, is how striving is fruitful, how exertion is fruitful. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....101.than.html


I do have a problem with one sutta though


Monks, I will teach you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Listen and pay close attention. I will speak.

"Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma.

"And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma.

"And what is the cessation of kamma? Whoever touches the release that comes from the cessation of bodily kamma, verbal kamma, & mental kamma: This is called the cessation of kamma.

"And what is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

"So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you."
Which in my reading would mean


"Now what, monks, is old intentional action? The eye is to be seen as old intentional action, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old intentional action, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old intentional action.

Any comments?

[nonDosearrany]

Perhaps it means that when there is no movement of the senses or intellect that kamma is stilled - but when they become active again new kamma can be created.

[nermise]

Perhaps it means that when there is no movement of the senses or intellect that kamma is stilled - but when they become active again new kamma can be created.

Thats sounds like a good explanation. It would be good if there were some alternative translations on it.

[Drugsonl]

It would be good if there were some alternative translations on it.

Yes it would.

I was looking at Ajahn Sumedho's book "The Mind and the Way" some of which is available to read at Google Books - and thought I'd quote a little of what he said about kamma in Chapter 5 (page 49) "Kamma and Rebirth" :


"We can speculate about kamma and rebirth, but all we can know directly is whether we believe in these concepts,whether we don’t believe in them, or whether we just don’t know. Rather than speculating about kamma and rebirth, I suggest that we study them in practical situations, investigate them in the present moment.


The Results of Birth

Sometimes people ask me why things happen the way they do. For instance they might say “I know this person was good all her life. She never did anything wrong. She worked hard and was self-sacrificing. But she died in agony, of a terrible cancer. What did she do to deserve that terrible pain?”

They want me to say “Well maybe in a previous life she did something nasty and she’s paying for it in this life.” That’s a popular explanation of how kamma works, but its only speculation. What we can say about this woman’s experience is this : “ It happened because she was born. If she hadn’t been born, she wouldn’t have gotten sick, and she wouldn’t have died.“

Why do we have the problems we have? Why do we have sorrow, pain, despair, grief and anguish ? We have problems because we were born. Birth conditions them all, everything, until death. If we had not been born, we wouldn’t have any of these problems. This is what is meant by kamma, and when you recognise this, you’re no longer surprised by anything that happens to you.

Continued:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ux8...o&source=bl&ot

[Polopolop]

Karma should be seen as cause and effect as applied to the mind that contemplates karma.

Thoughts, speech and action are all karma. Each "action" (as karma means) can bear immediate results, delayed results (plant a seed in the mind), or no identifiable results. The thrust of the teachings on karma is that if we act skillfully we can generate wholesome results ("effects") and wholesome "seeds" that will ripen in the future.

The state of the mind now has come to be from past karma. Knowing this, and having teachings about what is "skillful karma", we can begin to apply skillful karma... leading the mind to awakening.

This is the teaching for those who would awaken, who would know truth for themselves through their own effort; their own skillful karma.

Namaste

[Neitteloxesia]

Kamma IS intentional action

Thoughts, speech and action are all karma

Buddha said in AN 6.63 : Nibbedhika Sutta

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect."

[Golotop]

Yep.

That's where we have to focus; it's not only action (the cause that begets effect(s) now/later), but intentional action. By skillfully directing our thoughts, words and actions we tame and train the mind. The subconscious follows along, new healthy trends replacing the old unhealthy trends.

Namaste

[purchasviagra]

I think there are two main kinds of Karma; long term and short term. Long term karma would effect future lives and this life down the road. Short term is the day to day kinds of karmic acts which either smooth your road or bring you discomfort. Karma is formed not only by the way in which you interact with other people, but also by the extent to which you practice the practice of buddhism, i.e. prostrations, chanting, studying texts, and meditating. These religious acts support how you put yourself out in the world - and that makes Karma.

OM

[Auzuigcx]

What we choose to do determines the state of our mind, be it one of suffering or one of peace. For this example, karma = choice. Chosen ways of thinking, speaking and acting.

Unskillful choices are those we make out of ignorance of how reality actually is. These choices lead us to craving for sense pleasures, forming attachments, having views and cravings for eternal existence or annihilation, etc.; in short, these choices lead to suffering of ourselves and/or others.

Skillful choices are those we make with wisdom of reality. These choices lead to dispassion, detachment, non-craving and peace. Following the Noble Eightfold Path and exerting Right Effort in cultivating/maintaining wholesome mental states, while abandoning unwholesome mental states, is a path of skillful choices that leads toward Nirvana (the non-clinging mind).

Once Nirvana is realized, neither skillful nor unskillful choices are required. The non-craving/non-clinging mind has no requirements for continued peace, it will remain peaceful without seeking sense-pleasures or views, and even amidst physical pain and an ever-changing life. All actions taken by the "enlightened mind" are performed with full clarity/discernment of reality and lead neither to pleasure or to pain in regard to mental states.

This is what is meant that an enlightened mind generations no new karma. There is no one to think, speak or act, only conditioned aggregates functioning through cause and effect with the awareness of the causes of suffering fully discerned.

[espabamar]

.
I think it's also always important to understand that karma isn't some kind of cosmic punishment system and that the Buddha said in the suttas that we shouldn't speculate about the precise working out of kamma.

Worth remembering when we hear comments such as "Oh its his/her karma!"

[Nesskissabe]

I think it's also always important to understand that karma isn't some kind of cosmic punishment system and that the Buddha said in the suttas that we shouldn't speculate about the precise working out of kamma.

Worth remembering when we hear comments such as "Oh its his/her karma!"

Right, I agree completely! Karma is our (chosen/intentional) actions, not the consequences, and not everything that happens in our lives is the result of _our_ past actions. The world we're born into has come to be the way it is through the actions of many humans throughout history and beyond, and even more so the rhythms of nature and the Earth itself. If someone sees an ugly person and says "well they were vain in a past life, they deserve it, it's their karma!", that is more in line with the Hindu concept of karma than the Buddhist one. However if a stingy billionaire goes bankrupt and then suffers greatly and people say "he was greedy, his karma was born of possessiveness, and look at him now!" then this would be a better picture of karma.

The best way to think of karma, IMHO, is in the way it helps us now (how we can directly observe it working, if we practice). Karma teaches us that if we choose wisely how we think of life, how we speak or interact with others, and our physical actions... this will lead the mind away from greed, aversion and delusion. It will lead the mind toward generosity, good-will and wisdom. We will begin to detach from a world of self-clinging, of seeking temporary happiness where we can find it, and begin to see the bigger picture of which we are just a transient piece.