[diemeareendup]

I'm not a troll.

(1) His view of punk is inaccurate.
(2) His association of Buddhism with 12 Step Recovery (AA/NA) is inappropriate.
(3) While his experience with meditation and dhamma seems genuine, he is not, to me anyway, "the voice of the next generation of American Buddhism" (from the inside jacket of his book The Heart of the Revolution). Would he even be in this position if his dad wasn't already a popular Buddhist author, which gave him exclusive in-roads to folks like Kornfield? Maybe his dad should have spent less time teaching meditation and more time parenting.

Again, I am not a troll. I'm a contemporary of Noah, an American (Theravada) Buddhist, and a long-time fan of punk. Noah is NOT MY LEADER, TEACHER or VOICE. My teachers are Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Gil Fronsdal, Ajahn Sucitto, etc.... IOW, the clearly competent.

AnonOfIbid

[AdipexAdipex]

Hi AnonofIbid and welcome!

Your critical first post in the group is rather a puzzling one since you haven't introduced yourself beforehand.

I don't live in the USA and know nothing about Noah Levine personally, nor have I read the book you mention. A link would have been helpful.

I am moving your post temporarily from the Theravada forum to General Buddhist Discussions because I'm not sure of the Theravada context at the moment.

Kind regards,

A-D

[gundas]

Very interesting life, when considering his mother & father were well-known Dharma teachers



As a youth, Levine was incarcerated several times. His first book, Dharma Punx, details teenage years filled with drugs, violence, and multiple suicide attempts—choices fuelled by disillusionment with American mainstream culture. His substance abuse started early in life—at age six he began smoking marijuana—and finally ended in a padded detoxification cell in juvenile prison 11 years later

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_Levine

[videolkif]

before i do anything else i'll introduce myself next...Levine identifies with Theravada, but Gen. Disc. fine w/me too...ps: is behaving critically okay? don't recall if the rules said anything about that or not

[Clarissa]

sure

critical discussions, on some occassions, can be beneficial, that is, if helps us see our path more clearly

but criticism just for the sake of it, like "wowsering", is not beneficial

buddhism is something very opened minded, like one big democratic family, that has alot of disagreements about on individual viewpoints

if Noah is helping others, even if he has his own version of Buddhism, as long as he is not involved in harming others, its OK

you do sound like you are on some kind of vendetta

if not, why are you "identifying" with Noah so strongly, if you care to share?

[icerrelmCam]

if Noah is helping others, even if he has his own version of Buddhism, as long as he is not involved in harming others, its OK

Well, I gave a careful read to the wikipedia link. First of all I agree completely with Element. I am looking to work with children left to live in the streets and the best results "out there" are with people of those same streets that have understood suffering and know better how to help this children. I am in the process of rapport with all this people. It seems that also they speak a complete different language. Their grammar repertoire is very short but they have a wide system of body communication with gestures, forms of greeting and accompanying rites.

Some of the "oldest" as they call them know how to deal with them even when they are highly exposed to violence and drugs. Some of this "older" gangs are aware of the life they had and they quit violence and drugs and are eager to work to help and thy show an outstanding level of compassion and a deep knowledge of how to help in street circumstances. I can tell they have a kind of "own version of Buddhism" and I am learning from them about having intelligent compassion.

Buddhism is not about robes and clean dojos always with everlasting smiling people around you. Street conditions are really tough and many, many people lives are tough too and we need to undestand that.

[SashaLionx]

Buddhism is not about robes and clean dojos always with everlasting smiling people around you. Street conditions are really tough and many, many people lives are tough too and we need to undestand that.

A very good point. Thanks for telling us about those experiences Kaarine.

[dAy2EWlg]

I think it takes a bit of weighing both sides of this or many similar issues, because, on the one hand, it isn't really necessary to keep repackaging the Buddha's teaching to fit every new trend that comes along, or to try and only extract those elements from it that fit the current needs that people have for immediate satisfaction.
On the other hand, the dhamma itself has no single shape or color. And if we imagine some sense of original purity to the teachings, picturing The Buddha sitting in a crowd giving a talk, then that is still just our own twist on things.

But it's like what happens when you put a chopped onion or garlic into the same refrigerator as a container of milk. If the onion isn't sealed, the milk will take on the flavor of the onion or garlic. Of course, the milk is still good to drink, but it might give your tea a strange taste. Similarly, I think the Dhamma or Dharma can take on an infinite number of flavors - as many flavors as their are sentient beings - and still maintain its original purity, even though some may not find the taste very agreeable.

The problems arise, or seem to have arisen, when self-proclaimed enlightened teachers come on to the scene, and do not carry on any tradition or lineage. I don't know if it really counts for much or not, if a tradition can trace an unbroken line all the way back to Sakyamuni, but at least if there are a few centuries where it is thought that enlightenment has been passed down, then I think that is good. This is an unfortunate aspect of Christianity, at least in America, where anybody can suddenly "feel the call of God" and set up a church and take people on all sorts of weird trips (and usually take their money as well). Noah's website very much reminds me of the "Punk" and heavy metal Christian rock band websites. But of course, this is only an outward form. Punks and monks have both shaved their heads.

This discussion really touches upon a number of topics that have been brought up here lately.

[Uojeyak]

before i do anything else i'll introduce myself next...Levine identifies with Theravada, but Gen. Disc. fine w/me too...ps: is behaving critically okay? don't recall if the rules said anything about that or not

Hi AnonOfIbid,

I tend to agree with what Element said in #5, and I'm wondering if perhaps you could share the reasons for your objections to Noah Levine in more detail ? Examples (with reference to sources) of what exactly you consider to be 'inaccurate' and 'inappropriate' would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[Hdzcxqoi]

All: Wow. Thanks You're all so nice and civil. I appreciate that. I will respond to everything asap.
with metta, karuna & mudita

[layedgebiamma]

I haven't read any of Noah Levine's books or heard any of his teachings, but I am a fan of his friend Josh Korda at the New York City branch of "Dharma Punx". Korda gives some of the most clear and concise talks on Buddhism I've come across in a very down-to-earth style. The punk-rock shtick, at least with Korda's group, seems really only to be a matter of making Buddhism more inviting to people who may feel out-of-place or uncomfortable in a traditional Buddhist gathering. It allows for people to bring some of the trappings of their their everyday identity (tattoos, punk-rock ethos, music preferences, etc.) along with them as a sort of "security blanket." As Element said, if it helps people,, I don't see the problem. However, I don't know enough about Levine or his following to address any of the points you mentioned, unfortunately, AnonofIbid.

[stoneeZef]

My intention is not to "wowser" (if by that you mean show off) and I'm not on a vendetta. I'm not identifying with Levine; I'm DIS-identifying with him. Who is the WE implied in your use of "our path?" How do you determine beneficence? How open minded should Buddhism be? Buddha's "Awakening...tells us that good and bad are not mere social conventions, but are built into the mechanics of how the world is constructed. We may be free to design our lives, but we are not free to change the underlying rules that determine what good and bad actions are, and how the process of kamma works itself out. Thus cultural relativism — even though it may have paved the way for many of us to leave our earlier religious orientations and enter the Buddhist fold — has no place once we are within that fold. There are certain ways of acting that are inherently unskillful, and we are fools if we insist on our right to behave in those ways" (Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Refuge, p. 55; http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a...awakening.html).

sure
critical discussions, on some occassions, can be beneficial, that is, if helps us see our path more clearly
criticism just for the sake of it, like "wowsering", is not beneficial

buddhism is something very opened minded, like one big democratic family, that has alot of disagreements about on individual viewpoints

if Noah is helping others, even if he has his own version of Buddhism, as long as he is not involved in harming others, its OK

you do sound like you are on some kind of vendetta

if not, why are you "identifying" with Noah so strongly, if you care to share?

[suilusargaino]

Noah came from an American, middle-class, suburban family. The way he got addicted to drugs and thrown in juvie didn't exactly happen on "the streets."

[Ngdyoysv]

I see the problem more as Levine attempting to co-opt a lineage/tradition (Thai Forest/Aj. Chah/Jack Kornfield etc./et al) to aggrandize his ego and/or agenda.

...The problems arise, or seem to have arisen, when self-proclaimed enlightened teachers come on to the scene, and do not carry on any tradition or lineage.... Noah's website very much reminds me of the "Punk" and heavy metal Christian rock band websites....
This discussion really touches upon a number of topics that have been brought up here lately.

[9rCR9hWL]

By inaccurate I mean how punk can a white kid from an affluent, Jewish, suburban family in California be? By inappropriate I mean would a Theravada leader want to be associated with an idea like, "a Power greater than ourselves...;" or the notion of a "God as we understood Him" to be "Sought through prayer...to improve our conscious contact with...Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out" (From the 12 Steps)?

[kranskregyan]

I have heard of another Dharma Punx teacher that resonates with people over Levine. I'll double check to see if this is the guy. Thanks.

[gkruCRi1]

There are many paths into the Dharma. Perhaps some will discover it via this man (I've never read his stuff btw) and subsequently move on to the core teachings. I didn't stick with my first group either but I now see them as an essential step in my understanding.

[flanna.kersting]

Hi Anon,

You need to say what you want to discuss with the group and actually quote, with links to the text, to show what it is that this man is teaching about Buddhism which contradicts the Buddha's teachings. Otherwise readers like myself who know nothing about Noah Levine, have no idea what you're talking about, and there's no foundation for a discussion.

Thanks

A-D

[Seiblybiozy]

I should've posted it in Beyond Belief? Is moving it there ok?

[gastabegree]

I will move it to Beyond Belief if you like - but first there still needs to be something for the rest of the group to actually share and discuss !