[AffipgyncDync]

I was curious about this article because I have known of Tibetan Rinpoches with various serious illnesses, who have died from them -and the 16th Karmapa died from cancer in his 50's. I also know of those who have ongoing serious medical problems including diabetes -and yet the lama in the article is said to have cured himself of diabetes too.

Can Meditation Cure Disease?

New York, USA -- A Tibetan lama believes he cured his gangrene-stricken leg by meditating for a year. Now scientists are studying his brain, hoping to discover a medical miracle.

Can the power of the mind help humans self-heal? That’s what a group of scientists are hoping to help determine by studying a Tibetan lama who believes he cured himself of gangrene through meditation.

When Tibetan Lama Phakyab Rinpoche immigrated to the United States in 2003, he was a 37-year-old refugee with diabetes and Pott’s Disease. His afflictions had gotten so bad that his right foot and leg had developed gangrene. He was hospitalized and examined by three different doctors in New York City who all gave the same treatment recommendation: amputate.

Few people would go against such medical advice, but Rinpoche (pronounced Rin-Poh-Chey) is no average person. Born in 1966 in Kham, Tibet, he was ordained at the age of 13 and named the Eighth Incarnation of the Phakyab Rinpoche by the Dalai Lama himself when he was working toward the highest level of Tibetan Buddhist study, the Geshe degree, in 1993. A deeply spiritual man who has devoted his life to the teachings of Buddhism, it was only natural that he should reach out to his mentor, His Holiness the Dalai Lama, when deciding whether to allow his leg to be cut off.

continued here:http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index....7,9792,0,0,1,0



ANY COMMENTS ?

[ElectraDupu]

I find these stories interesting but I would always advise using medical science in all situations

[vypusknye]

I find these stories interesting but I would always advise using medical science in all situations

Yes, I agree. We are not all Phakyab Rimpche. For average people is can be not to wise to sit down to meditate so to hope that diabetes will be cured just by that or any other difficult disease.

[ballerturfali]

All the best to Phakyab Rinpoche, but I will put confidence in his method when this is substantiated (and somebody likely claims a Nobel Prize).

[Ekrbcbvh]

In short, yes I do think in in many cases the appropriate type of meditation practice can cure some diseases.

First, it helps to look at the traditional/eastern medical texts and practices which have been around unchanged for a very long time. These take a good look at not only diesease, but maybe more importantly the cause of them. The article touches upon this, and that is the "blockages" of the channels (meridians; nadi's) that are directly linked to our emotions, the way we think and so-forth. Not just the thoughts themselves, but the "energy" (for lack of a better word right now) accociated with these thoughts has a tremendous effect on the subtle body, which then manifests in the gross body as a result. This, in the traditional theory is a main cause of disease (some look at ripening karma also, but this is not the discussion to go into the thoughts of that topic I suppose...), and with an appropriate method, if the disease in an early stage, can be averted through clearing these blockages. This is also, of course, part-and-parcel with lifestyle and dietary changes. Not only do some practices prove to be very effective in this aspect, at the same time practicing a sufficient amount of meditation combined with dharma practice will help to change the way we think and lessen the accumulation of more blockages.

I can firmly say, from my own experience in seeing others and hearing their stories, that it is absolutely possible to cure diseases, illnesses, including very early stage cancer. But, this takes the proper method, and a very strong and diligent approach by the practitioner. But I have also been told that in a later stage it is not usually possible. Like anything else, much depends on cause and condition....

(but don't tell this to the big-pharma companies...)

Mani

[vulikox]

First, it helps to look at the traditional/eastern medical texts and practices which have been around unchanged for a very long time. You put your faith in humorism, too? Or is a theory's age only a point in its favor if it comes from the Exotic OrientTM?

Way I see it, there's medicine that works and medicine which doesn't. It doesn't matter where it came from or how old it is; it can either be proven to work or it can't. When it comes to my health, I'll take things which can empirically demonstrate their efficacy, and when it comes to providing for the health care of others... there's something especially perverse and opportunistic about getting sick people's hopes pinned on approaches that have nothing to recommend them but their age and a satisfyingly mystical origin.

These take a good look at not only diesease, but maybe more importantly the cause of them. The article touches upon this, and that is the "blockages" of the channels (meridians; nadi's) that are directly linked to our emotions, the way we think and so-forth. Not just the thoughts themselves, but the "energy" (for lack of a better word right now) accociated with these thoughts has a tremendous effect on the subtle body, which then manifests in the gross body as a result. This, in the traditional theory is a main cause of disease (some look at ripening karma also, but this is not the discussion to go into the thoughts of that topic I suppose...), and with an appropriate method, if the disease in an early stage, can be averted through clearing these blockages. Energy healing? I believe some studies have actually been done about that. Here is one looking into the "therapeutic touch" flavor of energy healing. While I respect the cultural relevance of these practices, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data," and I could probably find at least as many people who seriously talk to fairies as you could find who meditated away their diabetes or Alzheimers by fiddling with their mystical body energy.

Meditation is awesome, but I want to see some studies done with this particular indication. I will repeat: meditation is great. But when it starts getting suggested as some kind of medical treatment, it moves out of the realm of religious practice and into the realm of research where health care belongs. At that point we have to be willing to keep whatever works and throw out whatever doesn't, or else we are seriously going to get people killed.

[JRixlcvF]

willing to keep whatever works

Three comments from someone who spent a career in medical care:

1. We keep a fair number of treatments that don't work or are of, at best, marginal benefit - I'm not referring to research protocols here but "standard" accepted therapies.

2. False concepts have a way of disappearing with time. Although there may be no currently known basis for some aspects of Eastern medicine (I would avoid here diseases that seem to require surgical treatment) it is fairly difficult to ignore ideas which have survived thousands of years.

3. You might be quite shocked at the number of medical treatments which are used daily and which have VERY little hard scientific data to back them up - they are often based almost wholly on the opinion of a few well-known and very vocal experts (who are paid handsomely for their "opinions").

My point is, assuming that Western medicine is solidly based on hard scientific data is a false assumption - and assuming that any medical treatment not based on hard scientific data is simply wrong and invalid is also a shaky assumption. How does one choose? Seek the advice of a professional that knows and understands the data and hopefully does not gain monetary benefit (aside from the time he spends with you) from your choice.

[Pheboasmabs]

1. We keep a fair number of treatments that don't work or are of, at best, marginal benefit - I'm not referring to research protocols here but "standard" accepted therapies.

I'm not saying we should keep those things. If the data says they don't work, then those things shouldn't be "standard accepted therapies." Just because a thing is conventional doesn't make it good.

2. False concepts have a way of disappearing with time. Although there may be no currently known basis for some aspects of Eastern medicine (I would avoid here diseases that seem to require surgical treatment) it is fairly difficult to ignore ideas which have survived thousands of years. Ignore them? I'm not saying to ignore them. I'm saying that their efficacy should be tested (which has already been done in many cases) and if they're not effective, they should be discarded (which is the hard part for people who would rather their treatments have a certain mystical flavor than that they make a patient better). If we substitute "discard" for "ignore" in your sentence though? I find it very easy to discard ideas which have survived thousands of years. I can name a few we're well rid of (or would be well rid of) if you can't think of any off the top of your head, but I bet you can do that without my help.

3. You might be quite shocked at the number of medical treatments which are used daily and which have VERY little hard scientific data to back them up - they are often based almost wholly on the opinion of a few well-known and very vocal experts (who are paid handsomely for their "opinions"). Oh, I wouldn't be shocked at all. It should not surprise you given what I said in my last post that I am aware of these people and that I think they're opportunistic psychopaths who are eager to prey on the sick and the desperate to make a profit. It's why I don't buy Airborne or use magnets or reiki to treat my migraines; it's not merely that those things are ineffective, it's that I would be giving paychecks to people who specialize in defrauding sick people.

My point is, assuming that Western medicine is solidly based on hard scientific data is a false assumption - and assuming that any medical treatment not based on hard scientific data is simply wrong and invalid is also a shaky assumption. What is "Western medicine" anyway? I heard this line from Ayurveda "doctors" in India when we interviewed them about it, this whole "our medicine is different from Western medicine" schtick (which, as an aside, it isn't; it's just out of date because we discarded humorism a very long time ago, and Ayurveda practitioners haven't). I don't see why evidence-based medicine would or should be any different depending on its culture of origin, nor should it be subject to different standards of proof. I get that a lot of people have this burning desire to obtain the Mysteries of the Orient or whatever, but pharmacokinetics is pharmacokinetics whether you're in Nigeria or Nebraska or Laos.

[TCjwwhcY]

First, it helps to look at the traditional/eastern medical texts and practices which have been around unchanged for a very long time.

You put your faith in humorism, too? Or is a theory's age only a point in its favor if it comes from the Exotic OrientTM?

Way I see it, there's medicine that works and medicine which doesn't. It doesn't matter where it came from or how old it is; it can either be proven to work or it can't. When it comes to my health, I'll take things which can empirically demonstrate their efficacy, and when it comes to providing for the health care of others... there's something especially perverse and opportunistic about getting sick people's hopes pinned on approaches that have nothing to recommend them but their age and a satisfyingly mystical origin.

These take a good look at not only diesease, but maybe more importantly the cause of them. The article touches upon this, and that is the "blockages" of the channels (meridians; nadi's) that are directly linked to our emotions, the way we think and so-forth. Not just the thoughts themselves, but the "energy" (for lack of a better word right now) accociated with these thoughts has a tremendous effect on the subtle body, which then manifests in the gross body as a result. This, in the traditional theory is a main cause of disease (some look at ripening karma also, but this is not the discussion to go into the thoughts of that topic I suppose...), and with an appropriate method, if the disease in an early stage, can be averted through clearing these blockages. Energy healing? I believe some studies have actually been done about that. Here is one looking into the "therapeutic touch" flavor of energy healing. While I respect the cultural relevance of these practices, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data," and I could probably find at least as many people who seriously talk to fairies as you could find who meditated away their diabetes or Alzheimers by fiddling with their mystical body energy.

Meditation is awesome, but I want to see some studies done with this particular indication. I will repeat: meditation is great. But when it starts getting suggested as some kind of medical treatment, it moves out of the realm of religious practice and into the realm of research where health care belongs. At that point we have to be willing to keep whatever works and throw out whatever doesn't, or else we are seriously going to get people killed. I wouldn't really call what I am talking about "energy healing", as if it were some "new agey" sort of thing. I am talking more about very powerful practices originating in the Vajrayana/Dzogchen traditions in which they have a very good understanding on the subtle body in correlation to the mind, and the healing effects of various methods.

I don't blame you, it does sound a little "unbelievable" at times, but I guess I have the good fortune of personally witnessing certain peoples' lives changed by these practices when so called "Western medicine" had said "that's about all we can do is give you this medication to deal with the pain" and so-forth. Actually brings a bit of a tear to my eye...For me that's all the "evidence" I need.

[Lidawka]

When it comes to my health, I'll take things which can empirically demonstrate their efficacy, and when it comes to providing for the health care of others... there's something especially perverse and opportunistic about getting sick people's hopes pinned on approaches that have nothing to recommend them but their age and a satisfyingly mystical origin.

Yes, I agree.

[w3QHxwNb]

evidence-based medicine

I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said but I am saying that "evidence-based medicine" depends very much on who is interpreting the "evidence" and therin lies the rub. It is the best we have but it is far from ideal and has a lot of flaws. That's not to say we should chuck the idea but don't go into it blindly believing that "evidence-based medicine" means that all physicians or researchers agree with the interpretation and some may strongly disagree - spend some time asking difficult questions of the docs you're involved with.

[adunnyByday]

I wouldn't really call what I am talking about "energy healing", as if it were some "new agey" sort of thing. I am talking more about very powerful practices originating in the Vajrayana/Dzogchen traditions in which they have a very good understanding on the subtle body in correlation to the mind, and the healing effects of various methods.

I don't blame you, it does sound a little "unbelievable" at times, but I guess I have the good fortune of personally witnessing certain peoples' lives changed by these practices when so called "Western medicine" had said "that's about all we can do is give you this medication to deal with the pain" and so-forth. Actually brings a bit of a tear to my eye...For me that's all the "evidence" I need.

Not able to discuss right now as unable to stay to spend the time, will be back when time permits

Wanted to agree with Mani above that I also have seen people cured of conditions which western medicine manages ... my current research thesis incorporates this topic in a broad sense - my current understanding that certain conditions enable a " cure " - as with everything this cure is impermanent if conditions again change, once our bodies have developed a tendency is seems that we can easily recreate conditions ....

[asivisepo]

The article touches upon this, and that is the "blockages" of the channels (meridians; nadi's) that are directly linked to our emotions, the way we think and so-forth. Not just the thoughts themselves, but the "energy" (for lack of a better word right now) accociated with these thoughts has a tremendous effect on the subtle body, which then manifests in the gross body as a result.

I very much agree with Mani's views. The mind and body are totally linked and therefore the mind has to have a huge impact on the body's health. In a small way I have found this to be so true. For many years I suffered horrendous migraines which spoilt my life. Medications were largely useless and gave side effects. Only when I really looked at my life, stress levels, diet etc did I finally realise that I had to change my thinking. As I learned to meditate and relax properly, exercise and eat well, the migraines decreased. I only get one perhaps every 5 or 6 months nowadays and it is always when I have not taken care of my mind/body balance. I can believe that even in serious illness this is relevant.

We do not know how powerful our minds are. According to Tibetan Bhuddism is it not said that the mind and it's possibilities are limitless? I would never just settle for conventional medicine alone, it has it's uses of course and one has to be sensible but I think meditation etc can be used alongside it. To sit there like a victim and expect doctors to cure you of all ills would be unrealistic.

[sleelverrex]

expect doctors to cure you of all ills would be unrealistic

And, as a retired physician, I would add such a notion could be risky, especially in the psychological/psychiatric fields, where the treatment can, at times, be worse than the ailment, especially if the ailment is relatively mild.

As I have indicated before, medicine is very far from the precise "science" it is sometimes portrayed to be, often by people who are not very knowledgable about it and who's description represents a wish rather than reality. Certainly, if you have an illness which is potentially life-threatening, you should seek the advice of a (trusted) physician and understand the situation and the possible treatments (and the likelihood that any given treatment would be of benefit). But, fortunately, the vast majority of symptoms that we humans develop are transient and need no specific treatment and, in fact, treating such transient symptoms has the potential to do harm.

I was an internist and the rule of thumb that I was taught: 85% of the patients that come to see you with complaints need no treatment and their symtpoms will resolve with time. This is especially true of psychologicaly-based symptoms such as occur in panic attacks. Unfortunately, at least in America, the populace expects (almost demands) "medicine" no matter what the doctor advises - the most obvious example being antibiotics for a viral infection - there will be NO benefit and the risk of side effects - and tranquilizers to modulate the effects of life's stresses, also with numerous possible, sometimes dangerous, side effects.

Enough, I'll get my soap box now..






Edited to create spacing

[happyman]

Hi Plogsties

How refreshing to hear this from you, a retired doctor. I have long suspected that the things you say are so. It is our own responsibility, each of us, to look after our health. Too many people abuse their bodies in so many ways e.g with excess eating, excess alcohol, smoking etc and then expect doctors to put it right with a pill. If we live right and find the right healthy balance for ourselves physically, mentally and spiritually, then we can avoid so much illness. It is certainly hard to find that balance and it requires thought, but the rewards are wonderful. I can say at my age I feel much better than I did 10 years ago when I did lots of mindless things! By cutting out sugar, lowering salt, avoiding caffeine, avoiding all vitamin supplements (I used to take loads) and by eating more wholesomely I now get very few headaches and feel good generally.

I think meditation in combination with excellent diet and mindful living can give truly good results. As for serious conditions, it may go a long way towards curing them sometimes but chances are the disease has progressed for a long time so is irreversible. It is interesting how you say such a high percentage of ills need no treatment, only time. This supports my belief that the human body will always strive towards good health and will put up with quite a lot before it breaks down.

[mvjvz]

Just 2 cents,

I have ever thought that meditation is about improvements. We can not deny that any mental condition has a biological background. I don't have at hand the quotes for this but meditation has been proved that improves the electromagnetic workings of the brain and the overall health of it. The workings of the brain are known as mind. Mind is the output of that workings. Any improvement comes from it. The problem here is the outstanding complexity of the brain. Same complexity we reflect through our own behaviour. To ground the mind into its biology and setting it away from the mystical and philosophical entanglements will lead to a better understanding and will free mankind from those same philosophical entanglements and religious delusions. This do not mean that this understanding will lead to a taken pill for happiness but meditation as the way to achieve mindfullness, a core aspect for the practice of the teachings of the Buddha.

[secondmortgagek]

'Scientists and doctors have discovered that when you are in a good humour, then even the cells in your body are more joyful; and when your mind is in a more negative state, then your cells can become malignant. The whole state of your health has a lot to do with your state of mind and your way of being'.
This is quoted from page 80 of 'The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying' by Sogyal Rinpoche.

To me that sounds perfectly logical and reasonable and indicates that meditation along with a really good balance in one's life of other factors such as proper simple diet, exercise, relaxation and sleep etc, can only enhance life. It stands to reason that it also helps to overcome illness and possibly serious conditions over time. There are those who would require 'real proof' but I am contented with what sounds really quite right. After all, our bodies are a collection of trillions of cells which all have to work together to keep us alive and all of them are controlled by the mind and brain. If we take care of the mind and bring it to peacefulness and joy, our health should improve.

[Kvkcgktl]

It's true that meditation can enhance our well-being, however its not necessarily the cure for serious illness, but it may help to soothe the worst symptoms of the illness.
Meditation certainly helped me when I had an operation - though I suspect it was partly the morphine they gave me too !

Tibetan Buddhist teachers meditate, and from my offline observations, some still get serious health problems and seek western medical treatments for everything from high blood pressure to cancer, so we shouldn't see it as a cure for everything.

Meditation is very important though, and one of its benefits it a more peaceful, open mind which can be helpful in all aspects of life.

[metrocartockasur]

There is evidence to suggest that people who are chronically dissatisfied with their lives/unhappy have an increased risk of developing cancers and heart disease ( and other ailments that involve immune system dysfunction). It is thought that, because of the alteration from the normal of various hormones(adrenalins and cortisol, in particular) in (physiological) stress states alter the immune response negatively, thereby increasing the likelihood of certain diseases. In survivors of heart attacks, persistent depression (nearly all of such folks go through a period of depression, as is true for most close brushes with death) significantly increases the risk of further heart attacks and death.

I believe, from my own experiences as a physician, that people who no longer want to be alive die much sooner than otherwise. As a personal example, my wife's mother, a very strong personality, was ill and in the hospital with an infection(diverticulitis). She was improving and doing quite well when, one evening, she told my wife "I don't want to be here any more ... tell everyone I love them". She was found dead in bed (in the hospital) at 3 AM - there had been no particular change in her condition that evening and there was no reason to expect any problems.

[urbalatte]

Your mother-in-law chose her own moment of death, sounds like it is due to her being a very strong personality as you said.