[mybooboo]

In fact, it can be said these three suttas sufficiently contain the supramundane teachings.

Thanks Element dear,

:hug:

[ignonsoli]

Thank you

Also, there is the Dukkha Sutta, which Thanissaro translates according to the Commentary Tradition as follows:

"There are these three forms of dukkha, my friend: the dukkha of pain, the dukkha of fabrication, the dukkha of change.

These are the three forms of dukkha." However, I would translate it as follows:
‘‘Tisso imā, āvuso, dukkhatā. Dukkhadukkhatā, sankhāradukkhatā , viparināmadukkhatā – imā kho, āvuso, tisso dukkhatā’’ti.

"There are these three forms of dukkha, my friend: the dukkha of pain, the dukkha of fabricating, the dukkha of change.

These are the three forms of dukkha." Personally, my view is it is best to create an understanding of this teaching using our personal experience.

Kind regards

[russianstallian]

Personally, my view is it is best to create an understanding of this teaching using our personal experience.

Sure Element,

[BUMbaronos]

dukkha lakkhana is not so obvious or apparent. But anyway, as you said maybe it's a meditative observation

[bugagasikaga]

Dukkha has three different meanings:

1. Painful feeling (dukkha vedana)
2. Inherent unsatisfactoriness (dukkha lakkhana or viparinama dukkha)
3. Mental concocting (sankhara dukkha)

Element, I have not read yet the suttas, but in your understanding, those this three aspects of Dukkha are separate "things" or maybe levels where in a non mindfull state can lead the mind to one another. Are this three states of mind really separate entities?

I can tell that the experience of each can lead to the experience of the others. For example, many times I go through painfull feelings... this painfull feelings, if the mind is not mindful, can lead to an inherent unsatisfactoriness because with the painful feeling comes a mental concoting about "your - self" becoming into anguish and disstress, like saying "Oh, how much I hate to go through this experience..."

There is a painful feeling but we add to it many additional ideas that lead to think about a personal painful existence... at that moment the mind is in mental concoting but if this is established then there can sprout a kind of Inherent unsatisfactoriness also after this event.

In short, when I see those three dukkha "categories" I can see a kind of gradient of depth. If it is so, if there is mindfullness about the painful feeling we can work it so not to reach Inherent Unsatisfactoriness or Mental Concocting.

Here by painful experience I understand any sort of experience that becomes painful like being attached to what has to fade awaya or trying to run away from things we do not like. So that hate and greed are painful experiences.

I'll be happy having your comments

Thanks,

[Espacamlisa]

if there is mindfullness about the painful feeling we can work it so not to reach Inherent Unsatisfactoriness ...

How can we prevent experiencing inherent unsatisfactoriness?? It's an inherent quality; not conditioned by the mind

[Toscoropreark]

...those three aspects of Dukkha are separate "things" or maybe levels where in a non mindfull state can lead the mind to one another. Are this three states of mind really separate entities?

Hi Kaarine

In my consideration, the three aspects may certainly influence eachother.

The 1st level is the inherent dukkha due to impermanence. From inherent impermanence-dukkha, such as a broken leg or arthritis, arises the 2nd level of dukkha, that is, physical pain. From physical pain, where there is not mindfulness & wisdom, the 3rd level of dukkha will come, that is, attachment to the impermanence-dukkha and attachment to the painful feeling in a 'personal' way.

Or from inherent impermanence/dukkha, such as the loss of a loved one, arises the 2nd level of dukkha, that is, mental pain (grief). From mental pain, where there is not mindfulness & wisdom, the 3rd level of dukkha will come, that is, attachment to the impermanence-dukkha and attachment to the feeling of grief in a 'personal' way.

There is a painful feeling but we add to it many additional ideas that lead to think about a personal painful existence... at that moment the mind is in mental concoting but if this is established then there can sprout a kind of Inherent unsatisfactoriness also after this event. To be "inherent" means it is always there. To be "inherent" does not depend on a lack of mindfulness.

"Inherent means the true nature of the object possesses unsatisfactoriness as a characteristic.

For example, my computer. Now, my computer is satisfactory. It is working. I can use my computer to satisfactorily communicate with you from another part of the world. But it is inevitable, without doubt, my computer or its operating successfully will not last forever. In fact, my (wireless) internet disconnects often. It is the true nature of my computer, due to impermanence, to exhibit unsatisfactoriness.

So when the characteristic of unsatisfactoriness is seen in my computer (even though my computer is currently working satisfactorily), my mind's current view of my computer will change. Instead of being blindly infatuated with the computer, my attitude towards it will be one that is more wise and even-minded. When my mind accepts it is inevitable my computer will not always satisfy me, my mind will be liberated from the computer. My mind will be free from the delusion that my computer can always satisfy me.

Kind regards



Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this steadfastness of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma: All conditioned things are unsatisfactory.

The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it & makes it plain: All conditioned things are unsatisfactory.

Dhamma-niyama Sutta 278. "All conditioned things are unsatisfactory" — when one sees this with wisdom, one turns away from suffering. This is the path to purification.

Dhammapada

[ddxbovMQ]

"Inherent means the true nature of the object possesses unsatisfactoriness as a characteristic.

The deep understanding of this sole fact is really liberating... and can lead to many other important understandings

As allways Element dear... Thanks a lot!

[Savviers]

It's an inherent quality; not conditioned by the mind

Thanks Deshy,

[PharmaDrMan]

The 1st level is the inherent dukkha due to impermanence

But you said dhukka lakkana is to be observed (vipassana insight) independent of the impermanence quality of phenomena in a previous thread. Because the Buddha taught them as three inherent qualities, not two. I always understood unsatisfactoriness in terms of anicca as your computer simile shows. I just don't understand how it stands as one quality on its own without dragging impermanence to the picture. It's hard to explain; Hope you get what I mean here

[RedImmik]

But you said dhukka lakkana is to be observed (vipassana insight) independent of the impermanence quality of phenomena in a previous thread.

Hi Deshy

I do not recall saying dukkha stands as one quality on its own without dragging in impermanence.

I probably would have said dukkha is different to impermanence. But dukkha certainly depends on impermanence.

Impermanence is change. Just change.

But dukkha - I am not sure how to define it best - but one attempt is dukkha is the utilitarian quality of impermanent things.

Kind regards




utilitarianism: the link between actions [or things] and their happy or unhappy outcomes [capacities]

Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/de...#ixzz15E6ZF4EA

[flielagit]

But dukkha certainly depends on impermanence.

For the unawakend mind, isn't it?

Impermanence is change. Just change.

For the awakend mind...

[FuXA8nQM]

Hi Kaarine

We can compare it to fire. Most people are awakened to the truth that fire burns so most people do not place their hands in fire.

The unawakened mind is not aware of the unsatisfactoriness (dukkhata) of conditioned things so the unawakened mind seeks satisfaction in and grasps conditioned things.

Where as the highly awakened mind does not grasp conditioned things and seeks refuge in the unconditioned Nibbana.

I have said before, the dukkha characteristic is something subtle. Many awakened minds see clearly the impermanence of things but not to the degree where the mind loses infatuation with those things & gives up those things.

I suppose that is why the dukkha characteristic is not discussed very much. If one intellectualises too much about it, it may sound pessimistic.

Kind regards

[Kausilwf]

I do not recall saying dukkha stands as one quality on its own without dragging in impermanence.

I probably would have said dukkha is different to impermanence. But dukkha certainly depends on impermanence.

Well, I searched but couldn't find the other thread where we talked about this. I think it's gone.

I had a hard time wrapping my brain around how the quality dukkha could exist without any relation to anicca. But anyway, maybe I misunderstood you. I fully agree that dukkha is an inherent quality in relation to anicca. Nothing is inherently permanent thus inherently dukkha.

[gniewkoit]

Cool.

[nicktender]

I searched but couldn't find the other thread

Hi Deshy,

It might be possible that the thread you were looking for was the one that I removed last month, when a moderator from another forum appeared at BWB and then launched an astonishingly immature and completely unprovoked attack on a member here.

Sorry for any inconvenience caused by the deletions.

metta,

Aloka

[neirty]

Hi Aloka, Please don't worry about it. I understand

[Overlord]

And thanks Element

[yasalaioqe]

I suppose that is why the dukkha characteristic is not discussed very much. If one intellectualises too much about it, it may sound pessimistic.

I think it is threatening to many people. The practice of this level means to drop all the golden jails, like ideas conditioned in nature, that are built so to abide in them. The pessimism given to this, IMO, is a kind of psychological defence. The way, I think, this can be understood is through meditation and not only by an intellectual struggle.

[PapsEdisa]

Hi Aloka, Please don't worry about it. I understand

Hi Deshy

I have pasted the relevent posts below.

Kind regards

E



Deshy
Forums Member


Re: Understanding Dhamma via prostitution
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2010, 01:04:26 AM »
________________________________________

Can you elaborate more element?

As far as I read it, "sabbe sankhara dukkha" : all conditioned phenomena cause dukkha when attached to as all conditioned phenomena are impermanent thus incapable of giving a permanent satisfaction. Element

Re: Understanding Dhamma via prostitution
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2010, 06:04:16 AM »
________________________________________


Hi Deshy

The phrase sabbe sankhara dukkha is not related to attachment. The phrase is the natural extension from sabbe sankhara anicca (all conditioned things are impermanent). It is insight knowledge or vipassana nana. It is an inherent characteristic (lakkhana) of conditioned things and unrelated to the mind's perceptions, views, etc. It is objective rather than subjective.

The phrase exclusively has the meaning: "all conditioned phenomena are impermanent thus incapable of giving a permanent satisfaction."

Penetrating sabbe sankhara dukkha via insight (vipassana) results in the mind losing infatuation towards objects. The result is dispassion and liberation.

To say an arahant ceases to experience sabbe sankhara dukkha is totally not correct. It is the very opposite. The arahant continually experiences sabbe sankhara dukkha and thus their mind is continually free from infatuation, craving and attachment.

Kind regards

E