[Mqcawkzd]

It is relavent in that it is a realized master's observation how the benefits of meditation are not limited soley to the meditator - because we are all interdependent and to one degree or another share common karma since we are in the same world.

The later add-ons you refer to are the teachings of widely accepted realized beings or those who are called Bodhisattvas.

It is the Mahayana belief that all beings are in reality seeking happiness and want to be rid of their suffering and we are Buddhists not just for ourselves alone to transcend suffering but because we see it as a vehicle to bring enlightenment to all.

Mahayana Buddhists believe in a dark age when the Buddhist teachings will be lost - all humans will have to help them then are the Bodhisattvas who will remain of their own free will in samsara to help others become liberated and so that there is sufficient virtue in the world to bring about the manifestation of the next Buddha - Maitreya.

[soonahonsefalh]

It is relavent in that it is a realized master's observation...

In Tibetan Buddhism one is told to regard all Tibetan teachers as 'realised' and 'Buddhas'. I never noticed much actual evidence of them being any different to anyone else, apart from the textual and ritual knowledge . However one is told it again and again, and since one is also told devotion (and Guru Yoga) to teachers, lineages etc is essential,one actually starts believing it in the end.

I'm not saying I found anything nasty about the teachers in any way... but what I did see was a number of different Tibetan men always with texts in front of them which they had been repeating since they were tiny children, receiving a lot adulation. (and who all had almost identical word-for-word answers to any questions after their "teachings"). Sure some of them had some insight in one-to-one conversations, but not always, and not exclusively.

The later add-ons you refer to are the teachings of widely accepted realized beings or those who are called Bodhisattvas But they aren't necessarily the teachings of the Buddha


It is the Mahayana belief ......

Mahayana Buddhists believe .......
Why are you telling me this? I already mentioned my offline experience in that area.

[LongaDonga]

Aloka-D, I am sorry to hear about your earlier experiences with Buddhism being unsatisfactory but happy you have found a way, which is more suitable for you. That is one of the great things about the Dharma - it is so vast and so profound - there is room for everyone here - you can go on a three year retreat, a three month retreat or a three minute retreat - you can study and recite one sutra, ten sutras, a hundred sutras or more than 1,000 sutras - you can recite mantras and light incense or not as you please. Even the precepts and vows are not necessarily obligatory - plenty of Buddhists don't mind the odd glass of wine when they claim it does not affect their mindfulness or meditation.

Andyrobyn, I am very happy your family is benefiting from your practice.

[SerycegeBunny]

Aloka-D, I am sorry to hear about your earlier experiences with Buddhism being unsatisfactory but happy you have found a way, which is more suitable for you. That is one of the great things about the Dharma - it is so vast and so profound - there is room for everyone here

Thank you. 'Different strokes for different folks' as the saying goes!

[Xzmwskxn]

The differences are less important than the similarities, surely?? Genuine question

Not necessarily !

[Adfcvkdg]

I do get that vibe from you Aloka-D and that is different from when we last spoke, if you are good with that then good

The more I see, hear,and investigate, Andy, the more I regret not having taken this direction years ago...and I do now feel that there are some profound differences which are directly related to my own understanding and practice at this time. However, that doesn't mean that I'm not grateful for what I learned previously, of course.

I think this is now becoming very personal -so back to the topic.

[GeorgeEckland]

Personal is where it is at for me - lol ... anything else is not so "deep " - or analytical, in my experience - also do not want to make any one uncomfortable or go off topic xx xx

Hi Andyrobyn, I think I relate to that. The more you feel personally addressed, engaged, giving, the less theoretical or abstract, and the more direct and meaningful - to me. The better one is able to understand and feel for the other in a big way with all faculties, and therefore efficiently and effectively. Today, a 10 year old boy on the bus, seven yards away, sneezed 5x, 6x 7x, and I got worried. We exchanged a smile, compassionate on my part. He was clearly comforted by that. And so was I

[UKkoXJvF]

Today, a 10 year old boy on the bus, seven yards away, sneezed 5x, 6x 7x, and I got worried. We exchanged a smile, compassionate on my part. He was clearly comforted by that. And so was I

Sounds like hay fever.

[Rounteetepe]

Perhaps it's the difference between the Theravada motivation and the Mahayana motivation we are talking about here.

You aren't seriously claiming that Theravadans are incapable of developing empathy, compassion, understanding of others, etc?

From the forum of Lama Shenpen Rinpoche's Dharmaling Congregation:

This is a post from another forum?

The difference is mainly in the motivation.

While this is often claimed by mahayanists, there are plenty of other more important and obvious differences besides just "motivation".

Theravada practitioners will focus on reaching Nirvana, Emptiness, and once reached, will remain in it for eons!

This is tibeto-centric elitist propaganda, perpetrated by folks who obviously have absolutely no familiarity with Theravada (or the teachings of the Buddha they uphold) at all.

Mahayana practitioners will focus on helping others, wishing to reach omniscience for the sake of the others, reaching Emptiness as a means, not a goal.

And how does the "merit-making" that is mentioned in the paragraph after this statement enter into all this selflessness?

It adds some specific practices to transform every moment in practice, transforming the perceptions, the energies directly into the pristine nature of the Buddha practiced.

Interesting PR spin, however, what the Buddha practiced has been preserved, so how is it claimed that deviating from that practice is going to get one "into the pristine nature of the Buddha practiced" (whatever that is supposed to mean)?

The things that have been added -- oracles, deity worship, etc -- are practices that the Buddha specifically denied the efficacy of.

The Therevada vehicle tends to rely only on Shakyamuni and his teachings whereas the Mahayana way takes into account Bodhisattvas and other Buddhas and their teachings and help.

Actually, most Theravadans have been steered to rely only on the so-called "abhidhamma" and the commentaries, ignoring the noble, liberative teachings of the Buddha and focusing on merit-making.

However, there are some who focus on the teachings of the Buddha, which are not in any need of embellishment or "improvement" from other, later, self-proclaimed "Buddhas and Bodhisattvas".

"If we can attain nondual, nonconceptual awareness in meditation

The Buddha did not teach "non-dualism", nor is nonconceptual awareness an important aspect of the meditation practice he claimed would lead to the ending of the effluents.

As our meditation becomes effective, the attitude of others towards us begins to change, and they themselves begin to turn inward and to search with greater conscientiousness through the stuff of their own minds and lives for spiritual solutions to their own problems.

So, are you seriously proposing that the tibetan religions have exclusive claim to the fact of change in one person having an effect on others around them????

And that this only comes about through their version of "attain[ing] nondual, nonconceptual awareness" in meditation...?

...how the benefits of meditation are not limited soley to the meditator

And, again, this is somehow only the dominion of the tibetan religions...?

The later add-ons you refer to are the teachings of widely accepted realized beings or those who are called Bodhisattvas.

It is widely accepted that flying an aircraft into a building and killing lost of infidels will get you Paradise and 72 virgins. Does that mean it is true?

It is the Mahayana belief that all beings are in reality seeking happiness and want to be rid of their suffering ...

Do you seriously believe that this notion is exclusive to the "mahayana"...? Do you seriously believe that the Buddha's teachings, adn the Theravada tradition that upholds them, do not express this?

...and we are Buddhists not just for ourselves alone to transcend suffering...

Neither is this the case with Theravada. This is just more maha/tibetan propaganda, beating up the tired old Hinayana Straw Man.

but because we see it as a vehicle to bring enlightenment to all.

And helping others out is the exclusive dominion of the maha/tibetan groups? Seriously, this sort of self-serving claim is dying out, as it cannot survive the light of day. It might work for mahayanists deluding themselves and each other, but it simply does not comport with reality.

Mahayana Buddhists believe in a dark age when the Buddhist teachings will be lost

And they seem to be working hard at making sure the Buddha's teachings are lost, buried under centuries of "Bodhisattvas and Buddhas".

Funny that you say "Buddhist teachings" rather than "the Buddha's teachings". Whose teachings are the most relevant here?

[DevaRextusidis]

Originally Posted by jan Today, a 10 year old boy on the bus, seven yards away, sneezed 5x, 6x 7x, and I got worried. We exchanged a smile, compassionate on my part. He was clearly comforted by that. And so was I

Sounds like hay fever ! Yes, it did to me too.

[drugimpotence]

i'm sure TNH is a truly wonderful person and obviously far more advanced than myself -and I do understand this approach ....but it also seems very romantic and unrealistic. It appears to me that one needs to be a fairly advanced practitioner to have the penetrating awareness that encompasses a deeper non-emotional understanding of another person and their needs

How many people are able to actually "go inside" another? Is there in the meantime a likelihood that we will be projecting our own ideas of how that person appears to us through the mist of our own emotions rather than the way that they actually are?

As for compassion being to 'suffer with'...in the past, I've spent some of my time crying in private and ''suffering with'' others with difficulties of one kind or another when I've been working with them in a professional role,.. but that's not really compassion, its emotional attachment. Indeed personal suffering of that nature is the kind which surely we need to understand and overcome whilst still having the abiity to empathise with others.

Additionally, in more personal relationships, if there is emotional (and maybe physical) abuse, sometimes one just needs to recognise and walk away from it rather than try to 'get inside' the other person and allow it to continue under the umbrella of "love". Through making the mistake of once wanting to 'help' and 'save' another in an abusive relationship I was involved in myself, I got dangerously near to losing my life.... which was a bit of a bummer whilst it was all happening! lol

So do we need careful word choices, definitions and practice strategies in these areas ? I think so. Otherwise we're just swapping one kind of emotional activity for another. Additionally, if 'helping' others is clouded with emotional obscurations then we become a 'do-gooder' without wisdom - and then we're not helping others at all and even harming ourselves, because of our own ignorance.


I'd be interested in hearing your own thoughts about love and compassion.

hands

Makes a lot of sense to me. So do you feel that you have learned more about love & compassion through learning what it is not?

[exsmoker]

Makes a lot of sense to me.

Also it made for me KoolAid dear,

Love and compassion is not about emotional cleansing through drama... is about, in the case of seeking help, to point fingers to the moon... tools for awakening... what Buddha taught...