[Ijkavylo]

nirodha-samāpatti | non-arising attainment / appeasement attainment

saññā-vedayita-nirodha | perception-feeling non-arising / perception-feeling appeasement

although a liberated (buddha) mind can enter into this state, this is a samadhi state & not intrinsically a state of liberation. it is a conditioned/fabricated state, as follows:

One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of space and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated. One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure and bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated.'

One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

MN 140 as was correctly pointed out, without any need of support , the experience of 'non-arising' of consciousness, etc, cannot be experienced in the liberated mind, i.e., always

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form [the formless jhanas]?"

"No, friend."

"So just now, friends, didn't you make that declaration without having attained any of these Dhammas?"

"We're released through discernment (wisdom), friend Susima."

Susima Sutta

[Sipewrio]

I suggest we try to leave the word untranslated wherever we find it, which may support discussion, unlike some of Element's antics.

how many times do these suttas have to be posted for one in denial of the Teacher's message?

the state of liberation is not related to the "non-arising" of sense consciousness

If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocted, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world'.

Upaya Sutta When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress.

Bahiya On seeing a form with the eye, he isn't infatuated with pleasing forms, and doesn't get upset over unpleasing forms. He dwells with body-mindfulness established, with unlimited awareness. He discerns, as it has come to be, the awareness-release & discernment-release where those evil, unskillful qualities cease without remainder. Having thus abandoned compliance & opposition, he doesn't relish any feeling he feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — doesn't welcome it, doesn't remain fastened to it. As he doesn't relish that feeling, doesn't welcome it & doesn't remain fastened to it, delight doesn't arise. From the cessation of his delight comes the cessation of clinging. From the cessation of clinging comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging-&-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

The Greater Craving-Destruction Discourse

[DoctoNilsonDen]

Therefore, Ananda, engage with me in friendliness, and not in opposition. That will be for your long-term well-being & happiness.

"And how do students engage with the teacher in opposition and not in friendliness? There is the case where a teacher teaches the Dhamma to his students sympathetically, seeking their well-being, out of sympathy: 'This is for your well-being; this is for your happiness.' His disciples do not listen or lend ear or apply their minds to gnosis. Turning aside, they stray from the Teacher's message. This is how students engage with the teacher as opponents and not as friends.

"And how do students engage with the teacher in friendliness and not in opposition? There is the case where a teacher teaches the Dhamma to his students sympathetically, seeking their well-being, out of sympathy: 'This is for your well-being; this is for your happiness.' His disciples listen, lend ear, & apply their minds to gnosis. Not turning aside, they don't stray from the Teacher's message. This is how students engage with the teacher as friends and not as opponents.

"Therefore, Ananda, engage with me in friendliness, and not in opposition. That will be for your long-term well-being & happiness.

"I won't hover over you like a potter over damp, unbaked clay goods. Scolding again & again, I will speak. Urging you on again & again, I will speak. Whatever is of essential worth will remain."

[TSVIDeo]

'Appeasement' can also work, as the examples above show, but appeasement seems to suggest a quiet remainder, while non-arising evokes an utter lack, which seems more appropriate in these formless contexts.

That is a very good point too. Wherever nirodha is used to mean "an utter lack of" the word appeasement can get misunderstood.

[Muhabsssa]

That is a very good point too. Wherever nirodha is used to mean "an utter lack of" the word appeasement can get misunderstood.

Originally Posted by daverupa

'Appeasement' can also work, as the examples above show, but appeasement seems to suggest a quiet remainder, while non-arising evokes an utter lack, which seems more appropriate in these formless contexts. what do "formless contexts" have do do with liberation & nirodha?

the suttas have explained the formless contexts are not states of liberation; instead, they are conditioned states

One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of space and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated. One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure and bright as this towards the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated.'

One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

MN 140

[fiettariaps]

the essence of nirodha is liberation

You asked about our thoughts on the translation "appeasement". Appeasement is a good translation in some contexts but as Dave said, sometimes the word nirodha is best translated as non-arising. It did not occur to me before but wherever a complete lack of something is meant by nirodha, the word appeasement can get misunderstood. The best translation depends on the context imo.

[ToifvT5S]

what do "formless contexts" have do do with liberation & nirodha?

the suttas have explained the formless contexts are not states of liberation; instead, they are conditioned states

That is not the point here. We are not discussing whether or not nirodha samapatti is liberation. We are discussing when nirodha is used in some contexts like "saññā-vedayita-nirodha", if appeasement is the best translation. Imo, non-arising is the best in that context.

[Scukonahuy]

That is not the point here. We are not discussing whether or not nirodha samapatti is liberation. We are discussing when nirodha is used in some contexts like "saññā-vedayita-nirodha", if appeasement is the best translation. Imo, non-arising is the best in that context.

You asked about our thoughts on the translation "appeasement". but as Dave said, sometimes the word nirodha is best translated as non-arising

yes, but i asked in the context of Paticcanirodha.

the excerpt by PA Payutto has pointed out the contexts for non-arising

but, the thread was started as a meditation, rather than as a papanca exercise

meditate upon it, rather than papanca about it

kind regards

[mobbemeatiedy]

the original idea came from here, in respect to kamma & contact. i felt the term 'cessation' did not really fit the context:

And what is the appeasement [cessation] of kamma? From the appeasment of contact is the appeasement of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the appeasement of kamma.

AN 6.63

[krasniyluch]

yes, but i asked in the context of Paticcanirodha.

Yes, in the context of dependent cessation, appeasement seems to work better especially in places like this:

From the appeasement of fabrications comes the appeasement of consciousness. But the word nirodha is not always best translated as appeasement.

From where did you fish out this word btw?

[ValintinoV]

From where did you fish out this word btw?

it just popped into my head when i posted this, to explain ending the results of kamma:

And what is the appeasement [cessation] of kamma? From the appeasment of contact is the appeasement of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the appeasement of kamma.

AN 6.63 'cessation' did not fit, such as in: "From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma". this would confuse a newbie, who may infer for karma to end, the mind must be unconscious

then the words 'quenching', 'extinquishing', etc sound a bit strange. of course, 'non-arising' is the same as 'cessation', namely, non-sequitur

so the word 'appeasement' just popped up, which has the flavour of cool, collected & wise sense experience

it was just an idea, that is all. i am not asserting it is perfect

but 'non-arising', definitely not what i was looking for

the word 'cessation' is the most serious error of translation in Buddhism. it is the sphere of Hindu rebirth ideas

kind regards

[HoqCBYMl]

the word 'cessation' is the most serious error of translation in Buddhism.

Well, in the context of 'dukkha nirodha', cessation of suffering sounds fine to me. It is best to give the idea of 'a ceasing' or 'an end' there.

[DailyRingtone]

Well, in the context of 'dukkha nirodha', cessation of suffering sounds fine to me. It is best to give the idea of 'a ceasing' or 'an end' there.

sure, in the context of 'dukkha nirodha', cessation of suffering is fine. this is why translations of the 3rd noble truth always make perfect sense

but the problem arises with Dependent Origination, where the word 'cessation' implies when ignorance ceases, the five aggregates, i.e., life, ceases

this is not a trivial matter. the history of buddhism is dominated by such materialistic intepretations. the literal rebirthers believe with the cessation of ignorance, there is the literal cessation of consciousness, mind & body, etc

then there are the neo-advaitists, such as Katukurunde Nanananda, that seem to hold with the cessation of ignorance, there occurs the cessation of the perception of consciousness, mind & body, etc, i.e., the cessation of 'naming' 'forms'.

***

it is essential to always use the 4NTs as the reference point, where the cessation of craving is explained as the cessation of suffering

[HassFks]

sure, in the context of 'dukkha nirodha', cessation of suffering is fine. this is why translations of the 3rd noble truth always make perfect sense

but the problem arises with Dependent Origination, where the word 'cessation' implies when ignorance ceases, the five aggregates, i.e., life, ceases

this is not a trivial matter. the history of buddhism is dominated by such materialistic intepretations. the literal rebirthers believe with the cessation of ignorance, there is the literal cessation of consciousness, mind & body, etc

then there are the neo-advaitists, such as Katukurunde Nanananda, that seem to hold with the cessation of ignorance, there occurs the cessation of the perception of consciousness, mind & body, etc, i.e., the cessation of 'naming' 'forms'.

***

it is essential to always use the 4NTs as the reference point, where the cessation of craving is explained as the cessation of suffering

Yes, I agree

[12dargernswearf]

As in yoga, nirodha can also be translated as "containment" or "confinement" in the context of the 4NT.

See:

http://www.yogastudies.org/yoga-sutr...krit-glossary/

http://www.dharmasanctuary.org/2011/...-new-insights/

Namaste