[fameintatenly]

dear Dhamma friends

i recall when i first learned in a buddhist tradition, listening to Bhikkhu Buddhadasa speak, he taught to free the mind from the perception of 'good' & 'evil', similar to as follows:

Those of you who are Christians or who have read the Bible will be familiar with the story of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that appears at the beginning of Genesis. It tells how God forbade Adam and Eve to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He warned them that they would die if they did not obey. If you understand the meaning of this passage, you will understand the core of Buddhism. When there is no knowledge of good and evil, we can't attach to them, we're void and free of dukkha. Once we know about good and evil, we attach to them and must suffer dukkha. The fruit of that tree is this attachment to good and evil. This causes dukkha and dukkha is death, spiritual death.

Bhikkhu Buddhadasa now, i read the following verse, for the 1st time, which is similar to the Dhammapada verse:

This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "The Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — has two Dhamma discourses given in sequence. Which two? 'See evil as evil.' This is the first Dhamma discourse. 'Having seen evil as evil, become disenchanted there, dispassionate there, released.' This is the second Dhamma discourse. These are the two Dhamma discourses that the Tathagata — worthy & rightly self-awakened — has given in sequence."

Iti 2.12 Those who imagine evil where there is none, and do not see evil where it is — upholding false views, they go to states of woe.

Those who discern the wrong as wrong and the right as right — upholding right views, they go to realms of bliss.

Dhammapada what do we think about this?

[opelonafqe]

Hi Element! Boy this is a tricky one, isn't it! I personally really struggle with this, as I tend to be very judgmental and black and white about issues of "right" and "wrong", all under the convenient umbrella of strictness. At this point, I don't profess to have an answer, but I'm aware of it and have faith that eventually I'll have the wisdom to understand. I'm a follower of Ajahn Chah, and he taught "It's all uncertain." and "Not Sure" as helpful concepts with some of these issues, so at least now I delay and contemplate a bit further than in the past. Or maybe the ultimate Emptiness of all things is the resolution. It is a most interesting subject and look forward to further discussion as we proceed along The Path. Best wishes in your cultivation, Tom

[HonjUopu]

I haven't been able to find out the pali word he is translating as "evil' but if it is akusala I think it's inappropriate.

[melissa]

Pāpa

Pāpaṃ pāpakato passathā

See evil as evil

Iti 2.12 Avajje vajjamatino, vajje cāvajjadassino;
Micchādiṭṭhisamādānā, sattā gacchanti duggatiṃ.

Imagining fault where there is none,
and seeing no fault where there is,
beings adopting wrong views
go to a bad destination.

Dhammapada

Vajja (nt.) [grd. of vajjati, cp. Sk. varjya] that which should be avoided, a fault, sin

[Fainnamoony]

Pāpa

Sabbe sattā kammasakā
All beings are the owners of their actions,

Kammadāyādā kammayonī
Heirs to their actions, born of their actions,

Kamma bandhū kammapatisaranā
Related to their actions, supported by their actions,

Yang kammang karissanti kalayānang va pāpakang va
Whatever they will do, for good or for ill,

Tassa dāyādā bhavissanti
Of that kamma they will be the heirs.

AN 5.57

[enfoires]

All the definitions I can find of Pāpa include evil, however to me for somebody or something to be labelled "evil" the evil must be inherent rather than actions arising and passing away they must be rotten to the core and beyond redemption.

I googled several references that compared kusala/akusala and punna/papa, it's interesting that punna (wisdom) is setup as a dichotomy with papa as I wouldn't have thought wisdom was the opposite of evil rather the opposite of foolishness.

[medshop]

Puñña = favourable, good, meritorious

Pañña = wisdom

[crestosssa]

Puñña = favourable, good, meritorious

Pañña = wisdom

Doh!

Though I still think evil is far too strong to be the opposite of merit.

[JohnImamadviser]

'evil' is certainly a strong word. although my intention in starting this thread was not to emphasise the English word 'evil'

by 'evil', i assumed readers would understand this word in a buddhist context to mean 'harmful', 'dangerous', etc

Goofaholix, are you suggesting 'evil' is an inaccurate translation? what alternative word can be used to reflective clearer meaning?

Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ, kusalassa upasampadā
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ, etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ

To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.

Buddhavagga Abhittharetha kalyāṇe, pāpā cittaṃ nivāraye;
Dandhañhi karoto puññaṃ, pāpasmiṃ ramatī mano.
Pāpañce puriso kayirā, na naṃ kayirā punappunaṃ;
Na tamhi chandaṃ kayirātha, dukkho pāpassa uccayo.
Puññañce puriso kayirā, kayirā naṃ punappunaṃ;
Tamhi chandaṃ kayirātha, sukho puññassa uccayo.

Hasten to do good; restrain your mind from evil. He who is slow in doing good, his mind delights in evil.
Should a person commit evil, let him not do it again and again. Let him not find pleasure therein, for painful is the accumulation of evil.
Should a person do good, let him do it again and again. Let him find pleasure therein, for blissful is the accumulation of good.

Papavagga e·vil   [ee-vuhl]
adjective
1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
2. harmful; injurious: evil laws.
3. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
4. due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
5. marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known for his evil disposition.

[poRmawayncmop]

Goofaholix, are you suggesting 'evil' is an inaccurate translation? what alternative word can be used to reflective clearer meaning?

I wondered whether that was your point when you appeared to be surprised to read the word evil.

However yes the translation doesn't sit right with me, in Buddhism we focus on the actions rather than the individuals making the actions, the term evil to me suggest the person making the actions is as I say rotten to the core.

Obviously unskillful/unwholseome that we use to translate akusala is too weak, I'd suggest wrongdoing would be a good one, or harmful, or destructive, these all to do with the action rather than a value judgement of the person making them.

[payloansday]

Can freedom be caused??!!! i thought "cause & effect" is the opposite of freedom!!

[htDgExh8]

For the purpose of this discussion, it could be seen that evil is as evil does. By this I mean, for example seeing how our actions function towards creating freedom rather than more grasping and clinging, related to the causes and effects they bring in and contribute to in our relationships and lives.

[Optipitle]

"Seeing" in itself is an "action", right? Why should i try to see the so called evil? am i trying to achieve something? am i seeing evil to "become" free? is freedom something i achieve at a certain point in the future?

[ahagotyou]

In doing right or causing harm (evil), these are actions.
I don't believe people are good or evil. They, for the most part, don't understand the "cause and effect" karma of their actions. Many are raised in areas where what one may consider wrong is common place.
So to say a person is evil ( I also think this word really isn't appropriate) is just casting a label on them. Though it is a negative lable.

My understanding is more along the lines of benificial, or harmful.

Is what you're doing benifiting your own path and in that aspect benifiting all living beings?
Or are you doing things that hinder your path and in turn not benifiting any living being?

In taking Refuge, the last line says:
"May I become a Buddha to benifit all living beings."

So I see the actions we make as benificial or harmful.
Neither good nor evil.

Also, the English language is a very limited language in it's ability to explain translations of words, which there are many there is no English word/translation for

[InvertPrete]

So I see the actions we make as benificial or harmful.
Neither good nor evil. Is there a real difference between "good or evil" and "beneficial or harmful"? aint all of them adjectives? when you use the words "beneficial or harmful" you are comparing, aint you? have you solved the problem by changing the terminology?

Is there a problem to begin with, or when we try to find a solution for a non-existing problem we are creating a problem?

[FailiaFelay]

I guess I chose the wrong wording. Beneficial or a hindrance.

We either make advancment on our path to Enlightenment or we hinder our path.
By hindering our path, through ignorance, the only problem is we are ignorant and haven't seen the proper way to advance on our path.

[Nakforappealp]

We either make advancment on our path to Enlightenment or we hinder our path.
By hindering our path, through ignorance, the only problem is we are ignorant and haven't seen the proper way to advance on our path Is enlightenment something static that we are going to achieve at a certain point in the future?

[wrefrinny]

We are on a Buddhist forum, correct?

Isn't the goal of our path to reach Enlightenment and help all living beings overcome samsara?

At least from a Mahayana view.

[Tryphadz]

We are on a Buddhist forum, correct? Yes, but as you might have noticed, i have been asking questions. I have not provided any answers that contradicts with Buddhism. Actually, i dont know the answers yet to any of the questions i ve raised.

Isn't the goal of our path to reach Enlightenment and help all living beings overcome samsara? When we use thw words "goal" and "path", both imply time (future) which is the outcome of the self. It raises important questions such as:

1- Is freedom to be found in the future?
2- Is enlightenment something static?
3- Is insight a gradual process?
4- Is it possible to learn how to be free from others?!
5- Was the Buddha himsef a Buddhist? Did he rely on anyone to get enlightened?
6- is freedom something to be desired or is it the lack of desires?

[fygESytT]

When we use thw words "goal" and "path", both imply time (future) which is the outcome of the self. Our path is the journey of our mind learning the ways The Buddha taught.

1- Is freedom to be found in the future? If you're saying "freedom" is becoming Enlightened, then yes. Through prctice and meditation it is in the future. How long???? How many rebirths????

2- Is enlightenment something static? Yes. Once your mind is Enlightened, it will remain Enlightened.

3- Is insight a gradual process? Yes, I'd say it is a gradual process, step by step you become less attached to emotions and physical desires.

4- Is it possible to learn how to be free from others?! Yes, that's why we try to find great teachers. Such as Lamas and Gurus. They are here to help us.

5- Was the Buddha himsef a Buddhist? Did he rely on anyone to get enlightened? No, the term Buddhist came from the followers of Gotama Buddha. They were folowers of the Buddha, hence Buddhists.
No, The Buddha found Enlightenment in meditation under the Bodhi tree. After trying very hard to find the Truth, he sat quietly and realized the Truth.

6- is freedom something to be desired or is it the lack of desires? Once again, if you're saying "freedom" is Enlightenment, as beings in samsara we desire to be free of suffering.
And when we become Enlightened we will desire nothing but to help other living beings to be released from suffering.


As I have said before, this is from the Mahayana view, which is what I practice.