[feedcomnet]

Was the Buddha himsef a Buddhist? Did he rely on anyone to get enlightened?

buddha did not rely on anyone to get enlightened, unlike all of us, unlike all of the arahants & bodhisattvas that relied on buddha

I have not provided any answers that contradicts with Buddhism. When we use the words "goal" and "path", both imply time (future) which is the outcome of the self.

the 8FP is a outcome of 'self'

"Seeing" in itself is an "action", right? Why should i try to see the so called evil? am i trying to achieve something? am i seeing evil to "become" free? is freedom something i achieve at a certain point in the future?

"seeing" is not an action. seeing is an automatic function of the nervous system

Bundokji, what exactly is this "freedom" you are referring to? freedom from what?

[singleGirl]

So I see the actions we make as benificial or harmful.
Neither good nor evil.

sound like a reasonable distinction to me

when the word 'evil' is used, it is often flavoured with hate, retaliation & condemnation

where as when the word 'harmful' is used, it allows for compassion, heedfulness & concern to manifest (imo)

[Solo3uc4]

buddha did not rely on anyone to get enlightened, unlike all of us, unlike all of the arahants & bodhisattvas that relied on buddha I think the fact that the Buddha himself tried all the different methods available during his time, then he realized that it does not lead to "Freedom" or "the truth" is very significant.

We have been seeing reality and dealing with others through ideas (through our subjective filters), but if we want to see things as they are without distortion by our minds, we need to free our mind from all knowledge accumulated in our memories.

What i am trying to say is that no one can show us the truth or make us, its the only thing that you have to do for your ownself. What the Buddha can help us with is to show us the plastic (which is the so called knowledge/ideas including his own teachings). I think the path should begin with freedom because we cant start our search for freedom with another bondage

the 8FP is a outcome of 'self' The eight fold path is information/knowledge that once i read it becomes stored in my memory which becomes a part of the self!! You might argue that its the law of nature...etc but this also will become knowledge and a part of my ego!

"seeing" is not an action. seeing is an automatic function of the nervous system Are we talking about seeing through the eyes? or seeing through awarness?

Bundokji, what exactly is this "freedom" you are referring to? freedom from what? I was referring to freedom from cause and effect. The title of this thread implies that freedom can be caused, and i dont think i agree with that. If something is caused then we are still in the same chain/vicious cycle.

[crazuMovies]

Thank you Element, I also see things that way as well.
We are able to 'see' our harm and it's effect and change the actions in the future. Learning compassion.


Bundokji, our Ego is a hindrance, it is one of the things that we as Buddhists try to let go of. It is an attachment to self being this good.

Cause and effect is Karma/Kamma, there is no way out of this. The Buddha is still experiencing this. Because of His actions and teachings he caused great amounts of good. So He is in His Pure Land, experiencing the calmness, peace and joy of his actions.

If something is caused then we are still in the same chain/vicious cycle. WE choose to cause something to happen. It is up to us how we choose to react to what is going on.
Nothing just happens to us, it is all Karma/Kamma returning things we have done previously in this existence or previous one/s

I take the title of this thread to mean more of a question asking "do we grasp onto what annoys us, (attach ourself to it) or do we learn/show compassion and let it go" In not letting it hinder our path.

[fedordzen]

I think the fact that the Buddha himself tried all the different methods available during his time, then he realized that it does not lead to "Freedom" or "the truth" is very significant.

it is not significant at all. buddha discovered a path that was unknown, which the wise have followed for 2,500 years now. lets face the facts. Buddha, whilst human, was super freak human. but we expect to find the path to dukkha nirodha without buddha?



We have been seeing reality and dealing with others through ideas (through our subjective filters), but if we want to see things as they are without distortion by our minds, we need to free our mind from all knowledge accumulated in our memories. unrelated to anything; just rhetoric; just parrotting KM

What i am trying to say is that no one can show us the truth or make us, its the only thing that you have to do for your ownself. What the Buddha can help us with is to show us the plastic (which is the so called knowledge/ideas including his own teachings). I think the path should begin with freedom because we cant start our search for freedom with another bondage contradiction. buddha explained what freedom is, so the mind engages the mind in that freedom. but buddha explained it to us (and much more)

The eight fold path is information/knowledge that once i read it becomes stored in my memory which becomes a part of the self!! You might argue that its the law of nature...etc but this also will become knowledge and a part of my ego! part of the self!! the eightfold path instructs not-self. the 8FP works as follows:

(1) understanding 'selfing' creates suffering
(2) intention to abandon the cause of suffering, namely, 'selfing'
(3) effort (an act of mental will; not self will) abandoning 'selfing'
(4) mindfulness, maintaining the mind free from 'selfing'
(5) concentration, the mind with one object, i.e., no 'selfing'

The eight fold path is information/knowledge that once the brain & eyes read is stored in memory which is a part of the mind

I was referring to freedom from cause and effect. The title of this thread implies that freedom can be caused, and i dont think i agree with that. If something is caused then we are still in the same chain/vicious cycle. non-sense. the universe is replete with causes & conditions. buddha only taught the causes of suffering need be abandoned, i.e., 'ego' & 'selfing'

regards

[Sleedyhex]

I was referring to freedom from cause and effect. The title of this thread implies that freedom can be caused, and i dont think i agree with that. If something is caused then we are still in the same chain/vicious cycle.

A point commonly misunderstood is that the Buddha taught cause and effect. The only cause the Buddha taught was the cause of suffering. Dependent origination is about the origination and cessation of suffering.

However, I am not sure why you say "if something is caused then we are still in the same cycle". It is exactly because something is caused that you can break the cycle. By eliminating the cause you eliminate the result... cycle is broken like that

[AgJ5mNXM]

Hello the seeking 1,

Bundokji, our Ego is a hindrance, it is one of the things that we as Buddhists try to let go of. It is an attachment to self being this good. Do we get rid of one attachement by creating another one? You & others on this forum define yourselves as Buddhists, so Buddhism becomes a part of your ego and you start to use Buddhism in your dialy life, so Buddhism becomes just another conditioning.

WE choose to cause something to happen. It is up to us how we choose to react to what is going on. Who is choosing? can you specify which one of the five aggregates that is not completely conditioned?

[DianaDrk]

Hello Element,

it is not significant at all. buddha discovered a path that was unknown, which the wise have followed for 2,500 years now. lets face the facts. Buddha, whilst human, was super freak human. but we expect to find the path to dukkha nirodha without buddha? I respect your personal beliefs, but i dont agree that there is something called "super freak human". The Buddha was an ordinary human as the rest of us, the only difference is that he had the courage to try something new and to depend totally on himself. To depend on ourselves is freedom, but unfortunately we dont want to be free, we always want someone to tell us what to do, this is what we have been doing for our entire life!!! We dont know any other way and we are too lazy/too scared to try.

unrelated to anything; just rhetoric; just parrotting KM Actually its your statement that is irrelevant to the topic discussed and it proves what i & KM are both correct. You have seen a similarity between what i am saying and KM which triggered your memory and you responded accordingly, so you have not responded directly to what i am saying but through an idea in your head/your memory/your ego which made you defensive. Its a bit funny that you sounded like you caught me cheating

By the way, i agree with KM to a great extent except but his idea of "unmotivated awarness" spoiled everything. If he just said that no one can help you to find the truth but yourself then shut up then i would have agreed with him %100.

contradiction. buddha explained what freedom is, so the mind engages the mind in that freedom. but buddha explained it to us (and much more) I find it a bit strange that you take whatever is written in a more than 2000 years text to be the truth, the text which always starts with "Thus i have heard" and after you read all the repetitve text it usually concludes with "That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words." (cant you see the power of suggestion, the monks delighted in what thw Buddha said so if you disagree with the sutta there must be something wrong with you )

How can effort lead to freedom?? who is doing the effort? and why? and then when we are confronted with these questions we start to use some strange similies (the raft simile) or use some contradictory statements like (do without being the doer!!!!!) all in order to escape from the main issue which is that effort can never lead us to freedom. Buddhists always criticize greed and everything they do stems out of greed. If there is no greed and reality is good as it is, then what are you practicing for???!!!

I admit that Buddhism can make us happier. When you practice meditation for long hours you learn how to deal with discomfort and it toughens you up which is important for happiness. It also takes us away and distract us from our emptiness by giving us a new centre, so we become the wise compassionate gurus which is quite statisfying for the ego. However, when it comes to the ultimate truth, i dont think any ideology (including Buddhism) can do us any good.

I cant help but to agree with some zen who say "if you see the Buddha on the road, kill him"

[ValdisSeroff]

Hello,
ego: the wrong conception of the self; the mistaken belief that “i am self-existent.” the fundamental ignorance that has caused us to circle through cyclic existence since beginningless time.
www.lamayeshe.com We define ourselves as Buddhists or living beings trying to follow the teachings of The Buddha. This is just a label. Which everything you see has.
In which we try to let go of our ego, and realize that we are really no different than any other living being.
Not above, nor below........the same.
Using Buddhism in your daily life is just living the right way. Look at the 5 precepts. These can be applied to any person of any belief system, and have the same effect. A good peaceful life, not harming other living beings and at the same time not harming ourselves. In either action or speech.
Conditioning is likened to Pavlovs dog.
Is being mindful of your actions and thoughts conditioning?

hopefully the Mind is guiding the decision. Which once again will either be beneficial or harmful.
The 5 aggregates are like anything else, impermanent, so how could they be conditioned to react the same way each and every moment or to the same situation at different times? Not that the same situation could happen twice and be exactly the same.
There is one point that has to be remembered regarding the nature of the five aggregates, and that is that each and all of them are in constant change. The elements that constitute the aggregate of form are impermanent and are in a state of constant change.
http://www.buddhanet.net/funbud14.htm

[inve.tment]

Hello Deshy,

When we examine what the Buddha said about causes of suffering, in the decond noble truth its desire, clinging and ignorance, do you agree?

Now can you name one action that is not driven by the above three causes? By explaning the causes of suffering the Buddha covered the whole issue of cause and effect imo.

Now, i know that you can hardly find two Buddhists agree on the interpretations of the four noble truths. I ve read a whle ago that the ones who truely and fully understand the four noble truths are the ones who are fully liberated (you can exclude me, not sure about you )

However, I am not sure why you say "if something is caused then we are still in the same cycle". It is exactly because something is caused that you can break the cycle. By eliminating the cause you eliminate the result... cycle is broken like that Eliminating the cause becomes another cause, you are still in the same cycle

[AncewwewBus]

Hello The seeking1,

I hope you and others people dont mind me being the devil advocate here (as usual).

We define ourselves as Buddhists or living beings trying to follow the teachings of The Buddha May i ask why are you trying to follow the Buddha or anyone else? What i am trying to say is that if the ultimate truth is what you are after (whatever that means) then i dont think following any ideology will help. If you want to have a happier and more peaceful life, then Buddhism is one amongst many other ideologies/philosophies that promise you the same result.

Using Buddhism in your daily life is just living the right way Well, all other religions say the same thing (i am not surprised ). You can spend few hours focusing on your breathing untill you start hallucinating, then you believe that something magical has happened to you. Many christians and muslims have seen miracls too, and they believe that they are living the right way.

Conditioning is likened to Pavlovs dog. Do we differ from Pavlovs dog in this particular instance? The theory of memory and learning is equally applicable to human beings but we are so arrogant to admit it.

Is being mindful of your actions and thoughts conditioning? Well, why do you want to be mindful of your actions and thoughts? are you trying to achieve something? if you do, then you must be conditioned.

By the way, what is wrong with being conditioned? what is wrong with reality being impermenant? why are we looking for something permenant? why we are not willing to accept reality as it is?

[Pipindula]

explaning the causes of suffering the Buddha covered the whole issue of cause and effect imo.

By explaining the cause of suffering the Buddha covered the cause of suffering. There is no such thing called the "whole issue of cause and effect" addressed in Buddhism irrespective of your opinion on the matter. Causation in DO is relevant to the origination and cessation of suffering only.

Now can you name one action that is not driven by the above three causes?

Any action that is not driven by the above three causes is an action that is not driven by the above three causes. You need to practice and verify this for yourself.

Let's say I asked you to imagine something and you imagined a bun in your head. Can you prove to me that you imagined a bun? You can't. Your imagination/realization is only verifiable to you. Similarly, I cannot put realizations into your head. As you yourself said, the Buddha just showed you the path. Walking it is upto you.

Now, i know that you can hardly find two Buddhists agree on the interpretations of the four noble truths

Really? I think most Buddhists who have spent some time practicing the teachings agree with the interpretations. Unlike some of the Buddha's other teachings, the four noble truths are regarded the same across all schools.

Eliminating the cause becomes another cause

More nonsense. When the cause is eliminated the result will also be eliminated thereby breaking the cyclic routine which exists only when causation exists.

[Gaxiciverfere]

Do we get rid of one attachement by creating another one? You & others on this forum define yourselves as Buddhists, so Buddhism becomes a part of your ego and you start to use Buddhism in your dialy life, so Buddhism becomes just another conditioning.

why refer to getting rid of attachment when getting rid of attachment is the practise of buddhism?

buddhism teaches getting rid of attachment. Bundokji. i thought you were depending on "yourself"

To depend on ourselves is freedom, but unfortunately we dont want to be free, we always want someone to tell us what to do, this is what we have been doing for our entire life!!! We dont know any other way and we are too lazy/too scared to try.

Yes, certainly. I lived this philosophy when i was 14 years old. However, Buddhism is medicine to remedy unsatisfactoriness.

kind regards

[Yb4bulVR]

I respect your personal beliefs, but i dont agree that there is something called "super freak human"

Irrespective of your personal beliefs, the Buddha was an enlightened human being unlike some of us. Having no traces of greed, hatred and illusion in the mind is "surpassing ordinary human state" in some sense. So "super freak human" is not completely uncalled for.

To depend on ourselves is freedom

Again, when a Buddhist talks about freedom, he usually refers to "freedom from suffering" not a sense of independence which a teenager running away from home feels. You see Bun, most of the things the Buddha taught revolve around one goal: "freedom from suffering".

unfortunately we dont want to be free, we always want someone to tell us what to do, this is what we have been doing for our entire life!!! We dont know any other way and we are too lazy/too scared to try.

Best to speak for yourself ...

When you practice meditation for long hours you learn how to deal with discomfort and it toughens you up which is important for happiness.

Toughness is not important for happiness. Toughness is perhaps important for tolerance. Your statement is quite amateurish from a Buddhist perspective because one of the very basic Buddhist teachings is that "what makes you happier is non-attachment". Meditation is not meant to rough you up by putting you though a tolerance test of sitting in a corner for long hours. Meditation is meant to direct the mind for letting go - non-attachment - cessation.

[Loolasant]

Hello Bundjoki, what is reality?

[dumadegg]

...can you specify which one of the five aggregates that is not completely conditioned?

Bundokji

the scriptures say there are two kinds of five aggregates:

(1) the pure five aggregates, free from attachment

(2) the defiled five aggregates, subjects of attachment

as long as there is life, there will be the five aggregates

of the five aggregates, the scriptures say: "They are to be comprehended" (rather than abandoned).

for example, your arm is one of the five aggregates; your leg is one of the five aggregrates. tell us how to be free of the conditioning that comprises of our arm or our leg, so we can be free?

***

consider examining the reality of life (rather than filling the mind with theories about 'freedom', which is more doctrine)

[GinaGomesz]

in the second noble truth its desire, clinging and ignorance, do you agree? Now can you name one action that is not driven by the above three causes?

Bundokji

the 2nd noble truth mentions "craving" rather than "desire". many actions are performed not motivated by craving, too many to name

[vansVoish]

May i ask why are you trying to follow the Buddha or anyone else? What i am trying to say is that if the ultimate truth is what you are after (whatever that means) then i dont think following any ideology will help. If you want to have a happier and more peaceful life, then Buddhism is one amongst many other ideologies/philosophies that promise you the same result.

I did say follow the teachings of The Buddha. And it is your opinion that no "ideology" will help.
If you seek "freedom", as you put it, I hope you find your way to it.

Using Buddhism in your daily life is just living the right way Well, all other religions say the same thing (i am not surprised) Please use the entire quote. I also added the Five Precepts. Which are choices we as Buddhists choose to follow. In religion there are thou shall and thou shall not. In my opinion, Buddhism isn't a religion.
As HHDL said:
My religion is kindness and kindness is my religion Well, why do you want to be mindful of your actions and thoughts? are you trying to achieve something? if you do, then you must be conditioned. Being mindful of ones thoughts and actions is paying attention to what you are actually doing. Do you not do this?
Yes, actually I am trying to achieve something. That i guess means I am "conditioning" myself to accomplish this "goal" for lack of a better term at the moment.

[vodaPlaps]

Hello everyone,

Thanks for your replies, i cant answer every point in your posts becuase i cant cope with the volume so i will try to summaries what i was trying to say and hopefully answer few of the important points mentioned in your posts.

There are too levels of reality (they are one but to make this discussion possible i have to divide them), the subjective reality (Buddists call it the conventional truth) and this is what most of us experience, and there is the objective reality (mind independent reality/ ultimate truth).

Maybe most of us agree that we dont see things as they really are because we are conditioned by our past/memories/ideas/knowledge. In order to be able to see things as they really are (not as we want them to be) we need to be free from all knowledge. (so far i have not come up with anything new)

A possible problem with being a buddhist is that buddhism has already given me the answers and the method, and then told me to investigate if its true or not. But if we are humble enough to admit that we are too conditioned to the extent that when you give me an answer in advance, you are influencing me. Its similar to the palcebo effect (take a fake medicine without knowing it and you will feel better).

If i am allowed to give examples from other traditions, the first verse of the Tao Te Ching says:

The tao that can be told is not the eternal tao, the name that can be named is not the eternal name. When i read the above, i cannot improve on it, he does not play the game, he is not even a participant.

I totally agree with Element when he said consider examining the reality of life (rather than filling the mind with theories about 'freedom' and Buddhism is one of those theories about freedom that i am trying to clean up my mind from.

Do we really need someone to tell us how to live? how to taste our foof or how to listen to the birds?

[GreesyBeeva]

A possible problem with being a buddhist is that buddhism has already given me the answers and the method, and then told me to investigate if its true or not.

This is one of those things you have to try in your own life. In your practice and the action/reaction of everyday challenges. No one can tell you if they are true to you at each point of your existance.