[xT0U3UGh]

I am back teaching Buddhism again to 17-18 year old students after an extended summer break. Many thanks to all you virtual Buddhist friends who replied so quickly to all our questions last year. Your comments are invaluable to us even when, and especially when views appear to differ according to what branch of Buddhism people adhere to. May we continue to ask for your help? We are now looking at the Pali Cannon and would value your comments on the question we have to discuss, set down by our syllabus: "Are Buddhist scriptures revealed texts?". We are also going on to look at how different Buddhists take differing attitudes towards the Pali Cannon depending on whether they adhere to the Theravada school, one of the many branches of Mahayana or are indeed Western Buddhists. We would value your views on any of these questions. Looking forward to reading your replies. With gratitude, Podgerl.
P.S. I have written this as a Theravada thread, but realise that the question isn't confined to Theravada, and we are also going to be looking at the Lotus Sutra and the Heart Sutra in the context of the above question. x

[Mambattedge]

"Are Buddhist scriptures revealed texts?"

Dhammo padīpo viya tassa satthuno,
Yo magga-pākāmata-bhedabhinnako

The Teaching of the Lord, like a lamp,
Illuminating the Path and its Fruit: the Deathless

Pali chanting Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of stress.'

Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the origination of stress'.

Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the cessation of stress'.

Vision arose, insight arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before: 'This is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress'

Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion What more does the community of bhikkhus expect from me, Ananda? I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back.

Maha-parinibbana Sutta: Last Days of the Buddha .

[enasseneiff]

Please define "revealed text" as is understood in the syllabus.

It would appear that the term assumes the existence of some divine element to "reveal" these texts, which is not assumed in the Buddha's teachings.

As an aside, that would be the Pali "Canon"; folks in his time waged war with spears and arrows. ;-)

[Drysnyaty]

Hi, podgerl.

The Pali canon is clear that there was no divine instruction or revelation. Siddhartha Gautama was a man who figured things out for himself based on his own experiences and reasoning, not a prophet or messenger of a divine being. I hope you make this clear to your students. These days, a lot of people have the impression that Buddhism is based on so much "woo," like witchcraft, shamanism and crystal therapy. Please let them know that its original form was nothing whatsoever like that at all. It was quite decidedly anti-woo, actually. Modern, faddish permutations should be overlooked.

[SergZHy67]

Hello podgirl,

Can be the case. Mostly when before the teachings of Buddha we ignore why and how is that we live unaware of many painful mental states and, after giving a careful reading to his teachings, we are faced with impermanence and non self as the real way things are... yes; it can be a deep revelation where the world will never be the same as it was before. I think that the quality and character of this revelation is a very intimate and personal event in our lives that needs time to be fully realized.

[Cajlwdvx]

Hi, Kaarine. The word "revealed" implies that some supernatural source gave some hidden knowledge to a human. The word "revelation" can be used metaphorically, as I think you are, but it doesn't imply anything supernatural. In a sense, yes, the truths one discovers in reading the suttas and in one's practice can be called "revelations," in the sense that a truth was revealed, but that's a mundane use of the term. The way I read the OP is that, "Are Buddhist scriptures revealed texts?" is asking if the Buddhist texts were handed down by a supernatural being, such as a god. I may be wrong, of course.

[rikdpola]

Hi, Kaarine. The word "revealed" implies that some supernatural source gave some hidden knowledge to a human.

Yes, that is true.

The word "revelation" can be used metaphorically, as I think you are, but it doesn't imply anything supernatural. Yes, that was my idea. To set apart the idea of some supernatural stuff from what the Buddha taught.

In a sense, yes, the truths one discovers in reading the suttas and in one's practice can be called "revelations," in the sense that a truth was revealed, but that's a mundane use of the term. I felt was a sort of revelation when I first read the Four Noble Truths. I could not see things the way I used. Never again.

The way I read the OP is that, "Are Buddhist scriptures revealed texts?" is asking if the Buddhist texts were handed down by a supernatural being, such as a god. I may be wrong, of course. Sure. It is not the same thing an Arhat than a "God".

[ARKLqAZ6]

The word "revealed" implies that some supernatural source gave some hidden knowledge to a human.

are we certain?

the Dhamma (Truth) was certainly something "hidden" from man until the Buddha discovered it

Monks, whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this steadfastness of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma. The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it & makes it plain

Dhamma-niyama Sutta did 'something' reveal the Dhamma to the Buddha?

immediately after his enlightenment, the Buddha made the following exclamation about 'revelation'




Yadā have pātubhavanti dhammā,
Ātāpino jhāyato brāhmaṇassa;
Vidhūpayaṃ tiṭṭhati mārasenaṃ,
Sūriyova obhāsayamantalikkha

When things become manifest (John D. Ireland)
To the ardent meditating brahman,
He abides scattering Mara's host
Like the sun illumining the sky

As phenomena grow clear (Thanissaro Bhikkhu)
to the brahman — ardent, in jhāna —
he stands, routing Māra's army,
as the sun, illumining the sky

When the nature of things becomes really manifest (Anandajoti Bhikkhu)

Truly, when things grow plain (Buddhanet)

Indeed when things become apparent (Ven Aggacitta)

All dhammas revealed themselves to him (Shiro Matsumoto)

As soon as (the true nature of) things is revealed to him (Vimalo Kulbarz)

With composed mind appear true views (Pali Text Society)

When the real nature of things becomes clear (Professor Ko Lay)

Ud 1.3

[RogHammon]

Yes, that is true...

..It is not the same thing an Arhat than a "God".

Yeah, I didn't think you meant that. I know that English isn't your native tongue, so I thought it might be helpful to explain the different ways the words "revealed" and "revelation" can be used that have very different connotations. One implies a supernatural being that delivers some special knowledge, the other way is perfectly mundane.

[flowersnewacq]

are we certain?

the Dhamma (Truth) was certainly something "hidden" from man until the Buddha discovered it

Really? Who hid it?

I don't want to get into a derail about language, so I'll just briefly say that the word "hidden" was not central to my statement. "Hidden", like "revealed" and "revelation" can have various connotations. The connotation I intended was simply, "not previously known at the time". My point was that the Buddha did not credit a supernatural deity with giving him the dhamma. That seems to be the connotation in the OP.

[DumnEuronoumn]

Hi Podgerl,

I think some Mahayana scriptures could be described as revealed texts. For instance, the Heart Sutra presents itself as the words of Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara following a deep realization, which he then communicates to Shariputra (one of the Buddha's chief disciples) and to us. So from our standpoint the sutra could be seen as "revealed wisdom".

Some scholars believe various Mahayana teachings may have resulted from monks entering deep meditative states during which they met -- or believed they met -- the Buddha, who taught them dharma. Moreover, according to Mahayana mythology, certain sutras -- including the Lotus -- were hidden for five centuries in a dragon realm, and eventually "discovered" by Nagarjuna.

Mahayana has the concept of dharmakaya. In this understanding, the historical Buddha (Siddartha Gautama) was one manifestation of the transcendent Buddha -- he appeared in a certain time and place (fifth century BC) in order to communicate the dharma according to our capabilities of understanding it; however, the dharma itself is timeless.

All this aside, Mahayana teaches that everyone is ultimately Buddha. Thus, the paradigm differs from that of monotheistic religions, where there is a distinct Creator God who hands down rules and revelations to His obedient subjects.

[Manteiv]

My point was that the Buddha did not credit a supernatural deity with giving him the dhamma.

sure

but what about a similar superstition that atman (self) found or revealed the Dhamma?

for example, the Buddha is reported to have said:

For a person whose mind is concentrated, there is no need for an act of will, 'May I know & see things as they actually are.' It is in the nature of things (dhammatā esā) that a person whose mind is concentrated knows & sees things as they actually are.

AN 11.2 according to Shinichi Tsuda, such verses are about the ontological basis of revelation

for example, are the Buddha's teachings personal relevations about phenomenological (subjective) experience or are they teachings about the inherent (ontological; objective) nature of phenonema that has been revealed/uncovered?



As a representative of this position, I shall use Shinichi
Tsuda. As is well known, in the Mahavagga of the Vinaya Pitaka there is
a stanza which says that immediately after the Buddha realized the
progress and reversal of the Twelve Links, in samadhi (the meditative
state), "all dhammas revealed themselves" (patubhavanti dhamma) to
him. This "all dhammas", according to Dr. Koshiro Tamaki, means the
"original state of all dhammas" or "the root of all dhammas". Tsuda
maintains that the basis of Dependent Origination is in the structure of
the Dharma. In the same paper, he repeatedly used terms such as
"ontological basis", "the existence of the basis", "the one source of the
world", etc.

link •Ontology is the study of things & their nature — what is.
•Epistemology is the study of knowledge — how we know.
•Logic is the study of valid reasoning — how to reason.
•Ethics is the study of right and wrong — how we should act.
•Phenomenology is the study of our experience — how we experience.

[hitaEtela]

Originally Posted by Element


•Ontology is the study of things & their nature — what is.
•Epistemology is the study of knowledge — how we know.
•Logic is the study of valid reasoning — how to reason.
•Ethics is the study of right and wrong — how we should act.
•Phenomenology is the study of our experience — how we experience. It encompasses all of the above even though the teaching may have started off as a personal revelation about phenomenological. The seeds of all the rest are already planted in the Blessed One’s teachings which slowly grow into all other Buddhist School of Thoughts.

[gDGwm8BC]

sure

but what about a similar superstition that atman (self) found or revealed the Dhamma?

for example, the Buddha is reported to have said:



according to Shinichi Tsuda, such verses are about the ontological basis of revelation

for example, are the Buddha's teachings personal relevations about phenomenological (subjective) experience or are they teachings about the inherent (ontological; objective) nature of phenonema that has been revealed/uncovered?

Does the Pali Canon say that the atman revealed the dhamma? If some Buddhist hold that superstition, that doesn't make it the official Buddhist doctrine, does it?

I don't see how any of this is related to a claim that the dhamma was revealed to Gautama or anyone else by a supernatural being or process. The translation you cited uses "all dhammas revealed themselves". Are you equating the dhammas as supernatural beings or suggesting that the Pali suttas do so? I'm not sure where you're seeing a conflict with what I wrote.

And there are alternate interpretations of patubhavanti dhamma that don't use the word the ambiguous, equivocal word "revealed", which can imply conscious agency and intent, as well as not.

See: http://books.google.co.kr/books?id=v...dhamma&f=false If I say that I had a "revelation" during meditation, I'm not suggesting that a higher being gave me any information.

If I say that the sunrise revealed a distant mountain, I'm not implying conscious agency or intent on the part of the sunrise.

I don't see a problem with this. It's the conventional use of language, which is itself a convention. What am I missing?

[shanice]

If I say that I had a "revelation" during meditation, I'm not suggesting that a higher being gave me any information.

If I say that the sunrise revealed a distant mountain, I'm not implying conscious agency or intent on the part of the sunrise.

either am I

I am just saying "revelation" (not divine) can occur by processes beyond the will...just as a sunrise reveals a mountain

[adultcheee]

The Teaching of the Lord, like a lamp,
Illuminating the Path and its Fruit: the Deathless This is such a nostalgic reminder of what I used to sing back then from the Psalms of David in its 119th Chapter...
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.

[bredkumanfirst]

either am I

I am just saying "revelation" (not divine) can occur by processes beyond the will...just as a sunrise reveals a mountain

Cool. We agree on that, then.

But I'm curious: when you read the OP, did you feel that the context implied an unwilled sort of revelation? When I read it, I get impression that it's implying a divine or supernatural type of revelation, kinda like the Bible and Quaran. I'm asking only because it's interesting to me the way two or more people can read (or witness) the same thing and come away with very different understandings of it. It has deep epistemological and phenomenological implications that I think are relevant to the dhamma. But that's for another thread, I suppose. Don't want to derail this one too much. I'd have to give myself a warning...

[Keyclenef]

But I'm curious: when you read the OP, did you feel that the context implied an unwilled sort of revelation? When I read it, I get impression that it's implying a divine or supernatural type of revelation, kinda like the Bible and Quaran.

Hi FBM,

Yes. I felt that. Also the title of the thread suggests that idea. I think that the concept of revelation goes through that in the mind of many people.

I'm asking only because it's interesting to me the way two or more people can read (or witness) the same thing and come away with very different understandings of it. I think we can have two kinds of revelations. The one given by a sort of divine source as is the case of those who believe that for the Bible or other religious texts, and the one which has to do with what the Buddha taught. Indeed the Buddha, through his teachings, shows something that is not properly seen, where understanding and practice are needed more than just blind faith but it is still a sort of revelation of the true nature of things. I think it is, because otherwise, there will be no need to understand and practice the Dhamma. Non self is a very tough doctrine and the Buddha took his time to develop it in its entire realization and was not sure to reveal it.

Is like a photographer. He needs his time to reveal the picture with the acids and other chemicals so to show the image in its full intensity. It is a revelation of something that needed the proper conditions to show up. I think this is what happens in our mind when we start to understand and to practice the Buddha teachings.

It has deep epistemological and phenomenological implications that I think are relevant to the dhamma. But that's for another thread, I suppose. Don't want to derail this one too much. I'd have to give myself a warning... Sure this can result in a very good thread to discuss.

[BarBoss]

Please define "revealed text" as is understood in the syllabus

I can't help thinking that the above comment from Stuka #3 is very relevant here and has gone unnoticed.

Would it not be sensible to get some further clarification from Podgerl and then attempt one question at a time, rather than getting into intense debating amongst ourselves, forgetting that the thread isn't one of our ordinary discussions but is meant to give some feeback for the benefit of a group of students?

[Itrtuawh]

But I'm curious: when you read the OP, did you feel that the context implied an unwilled sort of revelation? When I read it, I get impression that it's implying a divine or supernatural type of revelation, kinda like the Bible and Quaran.

sure...'revelation' is generally means 'divine'. but i was making the meaning generic and framing it as 'unwilled' or 'beyond the will' or beyond one's 'doing'

being so, revelations from 'nature' have the same flavour as revelations from 'the divine', that is, being not from the will or ego

in other words, i was making revelation something ontological rather than phenomenological

regards