[invest7manager]

Did anyone ever ask the Buddha (as recoded in the Pali texts) about what happens when a person becomes unconscious, and then after a period of time regains consciousness? Specifically, the context I am referring to is that a person has some attachment to s sense of "me", and then after a period of being unconscious, such as in a coma, upon regaining consciousness they assume that same thought of who they were before. They sort of pick up where they left off even though they've been unconscious for a while. There are some schools that regarded this as a sort of of subconscious continuity.

I'm going to be up front here--I am not looking for a debate. This is a question that came up centuries later in the Mahayana schools. Really, I am not trying to pose a loaded question or anything. I merely want to know if this 'conscious-unconscious-conscious again' thing was ever addressed in the Pali literature.

Thanks.

[KRbGA0Bg]

There is grasping of memories as "me" and so the "person" is born/appears to continue where they left off


Just my speculation anyway

[JonnLeejsp]

No debate aim at all...

As a quick response... Random ideas... memory at the level of brain organic chemistry is really challenging... We can focus on the aggregates so to go through this issue. Now, returning to brain chemistry... I don't have at hand the quotes... but what is known is that any stimuli develops a kind of "learnt path" at the synapse: when we hear and see... there is a stimulation of noise and shape... if that noise appears again with out the shape,... the shape learnt path of the synapses develops as a kind of association even when the shape is not seen.

In a coma it is know that the person is hearing... even while hearing, not consciously, but the chemistry is at work and the brain is recalling associative stimuli with that noise... This is at the base of the healing power of music, so to give an example...

[UnmariKam]

It happens every night in deep sleep. No idea if there is anything in the Pali regarding it. Possibly a case of it running its course until the conditions which gave rise to it cease - like a fire burning on a certain fuel?

[jPNy2BP5]

They sort of pick up where they left off even though they've been unconscious for a while.

Yes, but sometimes they don't. Sometime they forget, if they have had a brain injury.

My impression is this continuity is a matter of "memory" rather than of "consciousness".

Consciousness is simply sense awareness. Where as continuity is a product of memory and thought construct.

This is why the Buddha never said consciousness is reborn. It makes absolutely no sense at all.

The Buddha said the results of action are "reborn" or "born again" or "reappear", etc, because these are the result of thought construction.

The reality of reappearance or continuity is one of sanna and sankhara khandhas rather than one of vinnana khandha.

My view.

[AlbrtJhnsqw]

Did anyone ever ask the Buddha (as recoded in the Pali texts) about what happens when a person becomes unconscious, and then after a period of time regains consciousness?

The Buddha did not indulge in such speculations. They are irrelevant to the matter of suffering and its extinguishment.

Specifically, the context I am referring to is that a person has some attachment to s sense of "me", and then after a period of being unconscious, such as in a coma, upon regaining consciousness they assume that same thought of who they were before. They sort of pick up where they left off even though they've been unconscious for a while. There are some schools that regarded this as a sort of of subconscious continuity. There are plenty of sects who do indulge in such pointless speculations. Largely in attempts to get around the Buddha's refutation of speculations of an Atta, "consciousness", or "entity", or other homunculus that would survive death to prop up a karma/reincarnation-superstition strategy.

I'm going to be up front here--I am not looking for a debate. This is a question that came up centuries later in the Mahayana schools. Really, I am not trying to pose a loaded question or anything. I merely want to know if this 'conscious-unconscious-conscious again' thing was ever addressed in the Pali literature.

Thanks. I have been all over the Nikayas and not seen such a topic as you describe come up at all. The folks who believed in reincarnation superstitions in the Buddha's time did not question it or have to come up with that violent of sophistic gyrations in order to support their speculations. Mainly because they simply took their superstitions for granted and were not up against a need to circumvent a declaration of Anatta like the Buddha's, or his own refutation of a "consciousness" entity that survived death. But mahayanists -- following in the footsteps of the Brahmin-abhidhammists -- have had to devise strategies to get around Anatta in general and and MN 117 in particular, in order to remain nominally "Buddhists" and still hold their reincarnation superstitions to be the "highest teachings".

[gIWnXYkw]

Consciousness is simply sense awareness. Where as continuity is a product of memory and thought construct.

Hi Element,
I liked this sentence a lot and as a result, I'd like to chew it over a bit.

Continuity driven forward by thought constructs and the results of action.

As thoughts themselves are ephemeral, like bubbles and appear to be an activity or product of mind and as actions once completed are over and done with, how can such be able of themselves to drive continuity?

Did Buddha go into more detail in the suttas?

[Prosocorneliay]

Hi Srivijaya

For now, I can only response briefly.

I suppose I am referring to conditioning. Not just thoughts but also the emotional impact of thoughts.

I am referring to the emotional impact that lingers on, stored unconsciousy and later reappears.

Yes, the Buddha referred to tendencies (anusaya) amongst other things. I will try to find something suitable.

Regards

[GreefeWrereon]

Thanks Stuka, all always, your reply is more than helpful.

[Bill-Watson]

Specifically, the context I am referring to is that a person has some attachment to s sense of "me", and then after a period of being unconscious, such as in a coma, upon regaining consciousness they assume that same thought of who they were before.

I suppose you are not asking how a person waking up from a coma remembers his identity (from his memory) but how the sense of self prevails in his mind all the time? Am I right?

[gusecrync]

Thanks Stuka, all always, your reply is more than helpful.

Ya get real answers here. ;-)

[MightyMasc]

Consciousness is simply sense awareness. Where as continuity is a product of memory and thought construct.

It seems that consciousness, understood as this, relates with what neurophysiology has found around memory processes as "fabrications" or learnt pathways at the neurons synapse.

[Heaneisismich]

I suppose you are not asking how a person waking up from a coma remembers his identity (from his memory) but how the sense of self prevails in his mind all the time? Am I right?

Yes, I think that's it.

The question is about how that sense of self kicks in again after somebody has regained consciousness. But again, I am not making any assertions here--I just want to know if this question, or something similar ever came up as recorded in the Pali scriptures. There are people here who are much more familiar with those texts than I am.

[MormefWrarebe]

but how the sense of self prevails in his mind all the time? Am I right? I can be wrong here... but it could be because the fourth aggregate? Mental Fabrications...

[stoneeZef]

There are a number of factors to take into consideration with coma patients though, its not quite so simple as just losing and then regaining consciousness.


"People may emerge from a coma with a combination of physical, intellectual and psychological difficulties that need special attention. Recovery usually occurs gradually—patients acquire more and more ability to respond. Some patients never progress beyond very basic responses, but many recover full awareness.

Regaining consciousness is not instant: in the first days, patients are only awake for a few minutes, and duration of time awake gradually increases.

This is unlike the situation in many movies where people who awake from comas are instantly able to continue their normal lives. In reality, the coma patient awakes sometimes in a profound state of confusion, not knowing how they got there and sometimes suffering from dysarthria, the inability to articulate any speech, and with many other disabilities."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coma

[AdvertisingPo]

Yes, I think that's it.

The question is about how that sense of self kicks in again after somebody has regained consciousness. But again, I am not making any assertions here--I just want to know if this question, or something similar ever came up as recorded in the Pali scriptures. There are people here who are much more familiar with those texts than I am.

I think what you are asking is an interesting question. Why a sense of self naturally prevails in the mind and how that kicks back in even if you have lost your memory completely. I think this is what we call "nature". That is the way things naturally are. If you observe an infant you can see that it has a basic instinct for survival. Even a plant responds to sunshine, turns it branches in the direction of the sun. It has a survival instinct of its own and a sense of self-protection. That's just the way things are in nature imo.

[Shootohoist]

I think what you are asking is an interesting question. Why a sense of self naturally prevails in the mind and how that kicks back in even if you have lost your memory completely. I think this is what we call "nature". That is the way things naturally are. If you observe an infant you can see that it has a basic instinct for survival. Even a plant responds to sunshine, turns it branches in the direction of the sun. It has a survival instinct of its own and a sense of self-protection. That's just the way things are in nature imo.

The Madhyamaka call this the innate self-grasping mind.

[pymnConyelell]

The Madhyamaka call this the innate self-grasping mind.

....but Madhyamaka interpretations not relevant within the Terrorvadin forum !

[pIp83Uns]

Yes, I think that's it.

The question is about how that sense of self kicks in again after somebody has regained consciousness. But again, I am not making any assertions here--I just want to eyeknow if this question, or something similar ever came up as recorded in the Pali scriptures. There are people here who are much more familiar with those texts than I am.

It's just the same as at any other time: The eye sees a form and a sensation arises that is pleasant,unpleasant, or neutral,etc. "consciousness" is not seen as a "something" that can be "lost" and "regained". You are working with an entirely different pardigm here, that has an entirely different aim.

Instead of trying to speculate as to what the mind is, the Buddha's teachings aim to explain how greed, anger, delusion and resultant misery arise in what we think of as "the mind", and how to extinguish them.

[opelayday]

Instead of trying to speculate as to what the mind is, the Buddha's teachings aim to explain how greed, anger, delusion and resultant misery arise in what we think of as "the mind", and how to extinguish them.

This is my understanding as well.