[Paiblyelaxy]

Is (the first) jhana (the beginning of) stream entry?
May you all find peace in your lives.
BG

[tipokotap]

My opinion is "no". Stream entry leads to jhana.

For example, of right concentration & jhana, the Buddha taught the mind first establishes itself in letting go of "self".

When "self" is let go of and the mind without "self" is witnessed without doubt, this is the stream enterer.

Imo, witnessing the mind without "self" will occur before jhana.

(However, rapture & happiness can arise on lower levels of concentration before the mind without "self" is witnessed.)

(These days, because jhana is packaged & marketed on supermarket shelves as take away fast food, many practitioners wish to declare any experience of rapture & happiness as "jhana".)


Regards



And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called the faculty of concentration.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....010.than.html "Let go" = "vossaga" = "relinquishment"

.

[imictiorume]

Is (the first) jhana (the beginning of) stream entry?

My opinion is this cannot be so because the "stream" must calm & purify the body first.

In the Anapanasati Sutta, the Buddha used the words: "He/she trains herself/himself" starting from the 3rd step.

The 3rd step pertains exclusively to the breath/body, where as jhana pertains to the 5th, 6th, 7th & 8th step.

The words: "She trains herself" means the mind is established in the three trainings of wisdom, morality & concentration.

As right wisdom is established, understanding how to apply the Four Noble Truths, this is stream entry.

Regards



Once the Buddha was sitting under a tree on the bank of the river Ganges near the city of Kosambi. Five hundred bhikkhus accompanied him. The Lord Buddha saw a very big log being carried down the river by the current.

He pointed to the log and said, "Oh Bhikkhus, do you see that big log which is being carried along by the current of the river?"

The Bhikkhus replied, Yes Venerable Sir, we see it."

The Lord Buddha continued,

If that log is not caught on the near bank, it will reach the ocean.
If it is not caught on the far bank, it will reach the ocean.
If it is not submerged under the water, it will reach the ocean.
If it does not land on a small island in the middle of the river, it will reach the ocean.
If it is not taken away by a human being, it will reach the ocean.
If it is not taken away by a deity, it will reach the ocean.
If it does not sink into a whirlpool, it will reach the ocean.
If it does not become rotten, it will reach the ocean.

http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana....htm#discourse

[AlbrtJhnsqw]

Not only is this the first time I've ever asked anyone that question, it's also the first time anyone's answered one of my questions on the internet in a completely satisfactory way.
Thank you. I'm much obliged.

[dumadegg]

Is (the first) jhana (the beginning of) stream entry?
May you all find peace in your lives.
BG

Hi BG,
Nice to have you on board. IMHO first jhana could be the start of a process which may eventually lead to stream entry but I don't believe that it is the start of entry itself.
I'll have to have a rummage around for some stuff I've read on that point (no time at the moment).

From what I recall, stream entry isn't necessarily linked to the attainment of a particular Jhana.

[ssyyyrruho]

Thanks dude/dudette (?)! Isn't that pretty much the opposite (at least in terms of the order: SE-->J v. J-->SE) of what Element's saying?

[KignPeeseeamn]

Dude if you will.

Yeah I guess it is the opposite of element's position. Not that I disagree in any way with the instructions he posted but I have a whole different take on seclusion, calm & purification. The conditions just need to be right within the session, not established in a prior way.

[ulnanVti]

Of course I will, dude. Well, you do answer the question in the negative, thereby dismissing the premise they're connected at all, which is required for any order. Element's explanation coincides with my understanding. Please share with me--if not now some other time--why your take on seclusion, calm and purification is different; perhaps start with a description of the conditions you mentioned. Are these conditions to induce jhana, stream entry, or both?
Respectfully & Peacefully
BG

[tuszit]

Just as an aside, Bhikkhu Bodhi has something to say about jhana and the attainment of stream entry here:


http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha267.htm

[Kimmitmelvirm]

The Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi is more than an aside (to me). I him (I know. No touching monks! ).

[TubOppomo]

Imo, witnessing the mind without "self" will occur before jhana.

Element, are you talking about the encounter of the "nimitta" here ?

[zCLadw3R]

Please share with me--if not now some other time--why your take on seclusion, calm and purification is different; perhaps start with a description of the conditions you mentioned. Are these conditions to induce jhana, stream entry, or both?
Respectfully & Peacefully
BG

Hi BG,
Briefly, over many years of reading stuff about the jhanas a fair amount of material indicates that a high level of seclusion (say withdrawal from daily activity - perhaps ordination) is necessary, along with heaps of pure conduct and virtue.

Whilst this may be a great aid, I don't believe it is necessary to this extent. In Buddha's day people lived in close proximity to each other in a very communal way. In order to gain jhana, seclusion is necessary but we no longer have to clear off into a forest to get it.

A quiet room is fine. I would say that following the instructions we have in the anapanasati sutta in the correct manner, i.e. observing the breath and sensory and mental movement in a detached (non-obsessive) way will yield results.

I don't consider stream entry to be a pre-requisite for jhana, though I imagine jhana to be a pre-requisite for stream entry. The reason being that with jhana comes deeper insight. The kind of insight needed to actually start to loosen the bonds.

namaste
Kris

[Ubgvuncd]

Siddhartha Gautama went to several teachers during his quest for the end of suffering (or the truth of it), and learned progressively deeper jhanic states from them. Therefore one could infer that jhana itself does not necessitate any level of awakening, for these instructors and Siddhartha Gautama had experienced jhana without awakening having occurred. It may be possible to cultivate all of the jhanas with no awakening whatsoever, but on the other hand awakening will clear the mind and make jhana much easier.

[CoallyPax]

Element, are you talking about the encounter of the "nimitta" here ?

No. Just mind with sufficient absence of thought to comprehend the nature of the "self" thought.

Regards

[RagonaCon]

...In the Anapanasati Sutta, the Buddha used the words: "He/she trains herself/himself" starting from the 3rd step.... The 3rd step pertains exclusively to the breath/body, where as jhana pertains to the 5th, 6th, 7th & 8th step.

Let's see if I follow you correctly so far. At what step does the the supramundane aspect of jhana begin (or where the does the mundane aspect end)?

[enactolaelant]

the "self" thought

Can this only be comprehended in jhana?

[yazetaw]

No. Just mind with sufficient absence of thought to comprehend the nature of the "self" thought.

Regards

Well.... I don't understand how not-self can be "experienced" without jhana that appears after the nimitta experience. I think the mind is still busy although it is subtle even during the nimitta experience. Or is it possible that you are talking about mindfulness that is enough to reflect on "not-self" without actually going into jhana? Just trying to understand what you're saying here

[OvDojQXN]

Hi Deshy

I am saying what I said. The article by Bhikkhu Bodhi covers the matter very thoroughly. The suttas do not align stream entry with jhana.

On the level of neighbourhood concentration, the mind can understand, via direct insight, the nature of the "self" thought. The mind is not "busy" in neighbourhood concentration. Neighbourhood concentration is bona fide samadhi.

The total stillness of jhana is not required.

Kind regards

[cypedembeda]

The article by Bhikkhu Bodhi covers the matter very thoroughly. The suttas do not align stream entry with jhana.

That settles if for me.

[exchpaypalgold]

I like Ajahn Chah's comments about jhana here in "Unshakeable Peace"....


The Dangers of Attachment

"Using the tools of practice entails hardship and arduous challenges. We rely on patience, endurance and going without. We have to do it ourselves, experience it for ourselves, realize it ourselves.

Scholars, however, tend to get confused a lot. For example, when they sit in meditation, as soon as their minds experience a teeny bit of tranquility they start to think, ''Hey, this must be first jhāna.'' This is how their minds work. And once those thoughts arise the tranquility they'd experienced is shattered.

Soon they start to think that it must have been the second jhâna they'd attained. Don't think and speculate about it. There aren't any billboards which announce which level of samādhi we're experiencing. The reality is completely different. There aren't any signs like the road signs that tell you, ''This way to Wat Nong Pah Pong.'' That's not how I read the mind. It doesn't announce.

Although a number of highly esteemed scholars have written descriptions of the first, second, third, and fourth jhāna, what's written is merely external information.

If the mind actually enters these states of profound peace, it doesn't know anything about those written descriptions. It knows, but what it knows isn't the same as the theory we study. If the scholars try to clutch their theory and drag it into their meditation, sitting and pondering, ''Hmmm...what could this be? Is this first jhāna yet?'' There! The peace is shattered, and they don't experience anything of real value.

And why is that? Because there is desire, and once there's craving what happens? The mind simultaneously withdraws out of the meditation. So it's necessary for all of us to relinquish thinking and speculation. Abandon them completely. Just take up the body, speech and mind and delve entirely into the practice.

Observe the workings of the mind, but don't lug the Dhamma books in there with you. Otherwise everything becomes a big mess, because nothing in those books corresponds precisely to the reality of the way things truly are. "

http://ajahnchah.org/book/Unshakeable_Peace1_2.php