[roundman]

I saw this topic at another forum and thought it was an interesting one to introduce here.

Does anyone know if Thich Nhat Hahn's concept of "interbeing" has any origin in the Pali Canon suttas? Did the Buddha mention anything similar to this.....and if so could you give references please ?

[CialisBestPrice]

I just found this explanation of 'interbeing' and wondered if anyone had any comments in relation to my previous post about the suttas:

INTERBEING

"If you are a poet, you will see clearly that there is a cloud floating in this piece of paper. Without a cloud there will be no water; without water, the trees cannot grow; and without trees, you cannot make paper. So the cloud is in here. The existence of this page is dependent on the existence of a cloud. Paper and cloud are so close......”

Interbeing: wisdom, prajna

Interbeing is a relatively new term coined by Thây to describe the essential interconnectedness of the universe. It challenges us to look beyond the world of concepts and opposites. If we look deeply into the nature of our universe we can see all things as profoundly interdependent.

In traditional Buddhism this was originally called dependent co-arising. At the heart of this understanding is the realisation that we have no separate self, that everything is empty of a separate self in a universe which is in a constant state of flux and change.

The interdependent nature of all phenomena is central to many Buddhist teachings.
If we use wisdom as a translation for prajna, it does not mean the same as the everyday idea of wisdom as in wise person. The Prajñaparamita Heart Sutra (see Chapter 4.3) means perfection of wisdom and deals with the element of Buddhist wisdom sunyata, often translated as emptiness.

Thây teaches that this emptiness is always emptiness of something, it is empty of a separate self. His insight is to turn this around from a negative to a positive, so instead of no separate self, he uses the term interbeing, meaning connected to everything."

http://www.interbeing.org.uk/manual_pages/2_2.html

[temansertewek]

SN 12.15 probably applies here.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away."

Whether or not interbeing follows logically from paticcasamuppada (or sunyata, to take another line) is beyond the scope of the Dhamma, as the Dhamma is concerned only with the world of the five aggregates subject to clinging, not the world of sunshine and paper.

[Injurnerona]

Thây teaches that this emptiness is always emptiness of something, it is empty of a separate self. His insight is to turn this around from a negative to a positive, so instead of no separate self, he uses the term interbeing, meaning connected to everything."

I like this a lot. Makes sense. It's sort of how I see dependent origination.

[UncoonsKala]

I really ignore about a sutta that teaches the doctrine of interbeing the way Thich Nhat Hanh does. It could be good to have one about this issue if there is one. The notion of "interbeing" (as interconnectedness) is not new at least in the field of Epigenetics, Complex Adaptive Systems and the field of Human Ecology. Suddenly Thich took that notion and gave it a kind of mystical approach convenient for the purposes of Buddhist Ethical behaviour and the new ideas of Social Engaged Buddhism. When I was a fan of Thich, before the books entangled with politics, the idea seem really romantic and beautiful but a little bit unpractical. Yes, a table has water and clouds and and air and depends on the carpenter and the seller and the woodland, etc...

Interbeing also gives us the clue to understand anatta and that a flower is made of elements that are not "a flower"; so a flower is not a flower because it is a flower... it is told in Zen.

Interbeing in some way tells we all are interdependent; that can be true, or not so. In Human Ecology we all know that some cultures are adapted to the environment in an "interbeing" way but we all know too, that in a highly complex network of interdependent beings some can disappear without any big disturbance of the homeorethic process of equilibrium while other elements are fundamental for the ecosystem.

I think that as an idea is beautiful and romantic. It can lead to be mindfull about our actions and how they can harm or help others. But this is neither a particular case for Buddhism nor a discovery of Thich. The fact of interconnectedness is evident in the way nature works and this has been known since the time of Ernst Haeckel, the father of Ecology, as the founder of a science with an interconnectedness approach.

[vTLWqa1l]

And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit & results in acquisitions?

There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There is mother & father.

Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

[AblemTee]

(from the Thich Nhat Hahn link) -"In traditional Buddhism this was originally called dependent co-arising."

Dependent Origination.....

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....035.than.html


I don't understand how 'interbeing' is the same as paticcasamuppada because I thought that dependent origination in the suttas was refering to a process within oneself, not to "the interconnectedness of the universe". This is why I was asking for any sutta references.

It seems more like idappaccayata - which is the law of conditionality : "because of this, that arises."

[bestbyV]

I love this term "interbeing", though I did not know its meaning/context until this thread.

There is no being, only interbeing. This is how I see reality. Thank you Aloka-D!

[pkopwqzsdcvbn]

"Interbeing" seems like Hippy talk....

"I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.
See how they run like pigs from a gun, see how they fly.
I'm crying.

Sitting on a cornflake, waiting for the van to come.
Corporation tee-shirt, stupid bloody Tuesday.
Man, you been a naughty boy, you let your face grow long.
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen.
I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob.

Mister City Policeman sitting
Pretty little policemen in a row.
See how they fly like Lucy in the Sky, see how they run.
I'm crying, I'm crying.
I'm crying, I'm crying."

etc etc

from "I am the Walrus " by the Beatles
Goo goo g'atchoo!

Everything being interconnected is pretty basic stuff - but back to the topic of the OP....
More suttas anyone?

[SDorothy28]

IMO, Thay is trying to present these ideas to a modern western audience. By putting it into evocative hippy talk, there are many people who may find this approach more appealing than sutta study (initially at least). If people put in the effort and wish to further their practice, I would hope that they realise they need to look at the original teachings of the Buddha.

Another example Thay uses often is the expression 'man is made of non-man elements', which is basically describing anatta.

Tbh, I'm not sure there is any link with the suttas. Again, imo it's all fingers pointing to the moon.

[fluoxet]

"Interbeing" is like Hippy talk....

Yes, it sounds like that... but also leads to imagine that stuff about the butterfly and the hurricane. Yes, maybe it can happen but if the case there will be hurricanes all around the world... so butterflies do more harm than we think... at the end, IMO, it is highly unpractical.

Thay is trying to present these ideas to a modern western audience.

Yes, as Green Peace and many other Ecological Activists aware of many ecological issues that are harming us and them; you and me, etc. Fortunately he is not the only one and Thay has his own political perspective to talk about this: a more hippie approach than a scientific one. Personally like the scientific one.

[cinggooft]

And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit & results in acquisitions?

There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There is mother & father.

Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty

Hi Element, can you elaborate more about this sutta and the interbeing issue... I can't find the meaning

[paydayuscf]

and that a flower is made of elements that are not "a flower"; so a flower is not a flower because it is a flower... it is told in Zen.

Isn't a flower only a flower because we call it so?

[BriKevin]

Isn't a flower only a flower because we call it so?

Hello Frank!

Yes, but the last flower is the flower understood through impermanence and anatta.

[jokiruss]

Thay has his own political perspective to talk about this: a more hippie approach than a scientific one. Personally like the scientific one.

Hi Kaarine
I sit with Sangha that follows Thay's teachings and was trying to work out why it's not working for me. I think you've hit the nail on the head. It is lovely and romantic, but isn't leading me away from suffering, only a direct study of the four noble truths is doing that, so I think I'm more inclined to a scientific approach as well. Thank you for pointing this out. As mentioned before though I think Thay's teachings can offer a lot to people just coming into Buddhism.

As an aside, I wonder if the hippy link comes from the time that Thay started teaching in the late 60's early 70's. That approach to 'interbeing' (we are all one) hasn't been updated since and maybe feels a little outdated. If anything I think society is becoming more selfish and disconnected. Unless people are directly affected by floods or war, for example, the images and media we see just become more noise / input that we have to process. All we do is go 'ahh, that's awful'

[annouhMus]

It is lovely and romantic but....

I'm glad others are expressing this too, because I read a couple of his books a few years ago to get a better idea about his approach - and I admit that I felt it was all far too romantic and emotive for me to want to investigate further.
He seems like he's a really nice man though.

[Chooriwrocaey]

Hi Element, can you elaborate more about this sutta and the interbeing issue... I can't find the meaning

hi Kaarine

I suppose, correctly or incorrectly, i am focusing on the term 'being' and am thus using a mundane quote

the quote means, in our lives, we have been & continue to be the recipients of gifts, offerings & sacrifices; that we have benefactors (such as mother & father)

the Buddha taught, in terms of benefactors, there are 'six directions'

the contrary, namely, 'wrong view', is we believe we are 'self-made' persons, like many wealthy or successful people, who declare: "I did it all myself!". "I do not owe anyone anything!"

kind regards



And how, young man, does the noble disciple protect the six directions? These six directions should be known: mother and father as the east, teachers as the south, spouse and family as the west, friends and colleagues as the north, workers and servants [or employer] as the lower direction and ascetics and Brahmans as the upper direction.

Sigalovada Sutta

[irrehoobe]

and was trying to work out why it's not working for me.

Hi JadeRabbit,

Curiously I had that same experience with Thay's teachings: They didn't work with me by any means. Thay has written several books. They are beautiful and romantic but, as I have commented, for me, completely unpractical as it is "his" interbeing issue. His written oeuvre expouses a dramatic shift from the Mahayana literature and some Zen insight into political entanglements in his late writings where he shows some of the hippie heritage that you have mention. I agree with that.

Personally I think that "his" interbeing idea adds more noise to the New Age Mysticism than a real mindfull discipline in terms of understanding, cessation and the path that leads to the cessation of Dukkha; and on the other side, the political one, his approach is just political, naive and discursive in a field where you can found many other actors that are working really hard getting their hands in the mud to keep and preserve, through scientific knowledge, the cultural and biological diversity all of it understood, long time ago, through the interdependent perspective as are the fields of Human Ecology, Complex Adaptive Systems, Ecosystem Networking, Regional Development, Participatory Systems, Acction Research, etc.

[LarpBulaBus]

the contrary, namely, 'wrong view', is we believe we are 'self-made' persons, like many wealthy or successful people, who declare: "I did it all myself!". "I do not owe anyone anything!"

True, I can recall that from Thay's early writings and this is what I find usefull about the concept. It is an issue to contemplate about.

Thanks Element!

[dubGucKcolo]

the quote means, in our lives, we have been & continue to be the recipients of gifts, offerings & sacrifices; that we have benefactors (such as mother & father)

the Buddha taught, in terms of benefactors, there are 'six directions'

Reflecting over your post Element this thought came to my mind: Why does Thay have never quote that sutta or suttas (the Pali Canon ones) at least in his main and most popular books. Not doing that makes one to think he has coined the idea and the concept of interbeing as his own discovery. Applying his own concept it would have been convenient to quote the source of his insight and to expouse it in a much more direct way as you have done it in your post.