[serius_06]

Found quite a good book by Ajahn Viradhammo that I thought I would share




Excerpt

The Buddhist teaching is not aimed at just getting
another kind of experience. It is about understanding the
nature of experience itself. It is aimed at actually observing
what it means to be a human being. We are contemplating
life, letting go of delusion, letting go of the source of
human suffering and realizing truth, realizing Dhamma. And
that’s a different process altogether.

When we’re doing mindfulness of breathing
(anapanasati) we’re not doing it with the effort to get something
later. We’re doing it to simply be with what is: just being with
an in-breath, being with an out-breath.

And what is the result when we’re being mindful in this
way? Well, I think we can all see. The mind becomes calm, our
attention is steady; we are aware and with the way things are.

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Bo..._Stillness.pdf

[Si8jy8HN]

Thanks Craig. I'll have a read of this over the weekend

[huntbytnkbel]

The Buddhist teaching is not aimed at just getting
another kind of experience. It is about understanding the
nature of experience itself. It is aimed at actually observing
what it means to be a human being. We are contemplating
life, letting go of delusion, letting go of the source of
human suffering and realizing truth, realizing Dhamma.

Thanks Craig dear,

This quote is very important and fortunately, very simple stated about what the teachings are. Here the "is not aimed at just getting another kind of experience" is at the core of Zen understanding. The saying "do it just because..." points to this important aspect in the practice of the teachings. When we set, in the case of zazen, a kind of objective we can get deluded trying to have "another kind of experience". Most of the pitfalls in zazen and in bringing zazen into daily life comes when forget the odd "do it just because..."

Namaste,

[padlabtard]

My Question is "What is Emptiness"? Someone just asked me that, and I didn't know the answer, other than the Heart Suttra which I believe is more of a mahayana thing??

I really hope I have posted this in the right format or dazzle is going to be terse!

[illerlytoindy]

Hi, Truelotus,

The idea of "Emptiness", as the Buddha taught it, is an indictment of illusions of status and ownership. We can call ourselves all sorts of things, and think all sorts of things about ourselves, but in the end we are just another creature roaming the surface of this odd little ball-thing going round in circles in space. And anything we hoard here, we can lose any or all of it at any moment.

The idea is to let go of notions of status and ownership, so that the shifting circumstances of life do not trouble us. Things are just things. People are just people.

The Buddha put it this way: "Everything whatsoever is void of self or anything pertaining to a self."


Most of what passes for "Buddhism" these days has inflated this notion of "Emptiness" into a vague and convoluted metaphysics totally unrelated to the Buddha's point. So it goes.

[gundas]

or dazzle is going to be terse!

Not at all ! When I'm explaining to you how to use the website it isn't being ''terse'' Truelotus, dear.

Its also helpful to start a new topic if possible, if you have a different subject to the original post, so that subject areas can be found more easily afterwards by others reading the forums.

If you look at the very bottom of the topic title list in each forum you'll see "New Topic"
Click on that, fill in a title where it says 'Subject' and then fill the box below it with what you want to say. (General info about using the website can be obtained in the Technical Help forum and in the 'help' section in the bar at the top of the page)


As an addition to what Stuka has already said, my understanding is that if one examines phenomena and establishes logically that they are empty of 'self', of any inherent and independent existence ,then one can examine the mind itself and sees that mental formations are also empty of 'self'. It doesn't mean that the mind, or anything else, is like empty space.

The chair I'm sitting on, for example, is empty of an independant 'self' and so is everything else in this room.

So if we can look directly at our thoughts and emotions, as they change and come and go, we can see that they are empty of any inherent existence of permanent 'self' too.


Buddha's words in Sunna Sutta follow :


Suñña Sutta: Empty. SN 35.85


Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "It is said that the world is empty, the world is empty, lord. In what respect is it said that the world is empty?"

"Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty.

And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self? The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self.

"The ear is empty...

"The nose is empty...

"The tongue is empty...

"The body is empty...

"The intellect is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Ideas... Intellect-consciousness... Intellect-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Thus it is said that the world is empty."


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....085.than.html

[irresseni]

"Rūpaṃ aniccaṃ,

Form is inconstant,


Vedanā aniccā,

Feeling is inconstant,


Saññā aniccā,

Perception is inconstant,


Saṅkhārā aniccā,

Mental processes are inconstant,


Viññāṇaṃ aniccaṃ,

Consciousness is inconstant,


Rūpaṃ anattā,

Form is not-self,


Vedanā anattā,

Feeling is not-self,


Saññā anattā,

Perception is not-self,


Saṅkhārā anattā,

Mental processes are not-self,


Viññāṇaṃ anattā,

Consciousness is not-self,


Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā,

All conditions are transient,


Sabbe dhammā anattāti.

There is no self in the created or the uncreated "


(from the Amaravati Chanting Book )

[wrefrinny]

My Question is "What is Emptiness"? Someone just asked me that, and I didn't know the answer, other than the Heart Suttra which I believe is more of a mahayana thing??

Hello Truelotus,

Some Soto schools have drop out the Heart Sutta and have brought into light the Maha Suññata Sutta MN122 and Cula Suññata Sutta MN121 so not to get astrayed and entangled with the speculative Mahayana philosophies about emptiness.

I highly recommend this two suttas once the are included at the Majjhima Nikaya wich are the essencial doctrine of the Middle Way teached by the historical Buddha so to have a ballanced perspective about his teachings.

[U2DnBGFE]

Just as an aside, two of my personal favorites which mention emptiness are:

Ani Sutta : The Peg - SN 20.7

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....007.than.html


and Phena Sutta : Foam - SN 22.95

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....095.than.html

[evarekataVame]

Just as an aside, two of my personal favorites which mention emptiness are:

Great!

Thanks Aloka,

[Yinekol]

OK, Aloka-D, here it comes, I hope I am posting this correctly.

Where is the joy? All this about emptiness and not considering anything permanent, is fine. Obviously, if we get attached to something, we will surely grieve later. But I don't get how knowing this can bring us joy? I meditate, and still don't feel joy. I just gave up getting revenge on someone, because it's against the Buddhist principles. Shouldn't I feel a little differently if I have come to these realizations?

I admit I have come to Buddhism for Peace of Mind and to be honest, it has worked, especially this CD set I have that is "Mindful Way Through Depression", but while that chissels away at depression, it has not ever created joy or true peace of mind.

What am I doing wrong! I have been meditating at least 20 minutes, usually 40 for almost two years. OK, I don't get panic attacks anymore, but am often smitten by depression and negtive thinking.

Yes, I'm attached to an outcome, but, in my former life, I used to be a scientist and Mindfulness Meditation has good good scientific clinical studies that it does, help with depression. Since that is a fact, or as factual as clinical studies go, I don't think it's totally weird on my part, to want that same clinical result (fact).

You know, really, I take tylenol and it gets rid of a headache. But I come to the realization that there is no self, and I feel the same. Shouldn't I feel differently?

I think that what has helped with depression is just the acknowlegement that "it's just a thought". Do not invest emotions into thoughts. Don't get tangled in your own thinking. Don't try to control the future. And most of all, don't beat yourself up if you are depressed, and that depression is mostly a constant negative judgement thoughts of your other thoughts, including your depression thoughts!

Best,
True

Sunny and cold 8)

[PharmaDrMan]

Originally Posted by Truelotus My Question is "What is Emptiness"? Someone just asked me that, and I didn't know the answer, other than the Heart Suttra which I believe is more of a mahayana thing??

Hello Truelotus,

Some Soto schools have drop out the Heart Sutta and have brought into light the Maha Suññata Sutta MN122 and Cula Suññata Sutta MN121 so not to get astrayed and entangled with the speculative Mahayana philosophies about emptiness.

I highly recommend this two suttas once the are included at the Majjhima Nikaya wich are the essencial doctrine of the Middle Way teached by the historical Buddha so to have a ballanced perspective about his teachings.

Yes, I see. Last time I was in a Zendo was with Katagiri Roshi! I can see why they eliminate it. It's a very nice Suttra but confusing at the same time.

I hope I have replied correctly and after the [/qu0te] mark.

Best,
True

[trilochana.nejman]

But I don't get how knowing this can bring us joy? I meditate, and still don't feel joy

Hi Truelotus,

I don't really understand what you mean about having a need to feel joy?

Have you had any kind of offline meditation instruction with a group at all ? - or is it just the CD that you have been following? I read somewhere that although Jon Kabat Zinn uses Buddhist mindfulness techniques, he's not actually a Buddhist himself. Perhaps that's where the difficulty arises ? - but I'm just guessing.

I'm wondering if the links in the meditation section in our Study Links might be helpful? Perhaps you could have a look at the Ajahn Jayasaro videos.

Kind regards,

Aloka-D

[GoveMoony]

Just as a gentle reminder to other posters, as this is the Theravada forum and not Beginners, or General Buddhism,or Mahayana, then Theravadin meditation methods take preference.

Thanks

[Qdkczrdi]

I really hope dazzle is [not] going to be terse!

School mistress!

[BoattyGonm]

I think that what has helped with depression is just the acknowlegement that "it's just a thought". Do not invest emotions into thoughts. Don't get tangled in your own thinking. Don't try to control the future. And most of all, don't beat yourself up if you are depressed, and that depression is mostly a constant negative judgement thoughts of your other thoughts, including your depression thoughts!

hi Truelotus

To me, you are doing 'emptiness' training here, which is not clinging to thoughts, not identifying strongly with thoughts and, most of all, seeing thoughts as just thoughts. To see 'thoughts as thoughts', to see 'mind as mind', is emptiness training.

What am I doing wrong! I have been meditating at least 20 minutes, usually 40 for almost two years. OK, I don't get panic attacks anymore, but am often smitten by depression and negtive thinking.

To me, you have made alot of success. Your mind thru meditation has learned to trust in itself. This is very important. You and your mind have learned there is no need for panic; there is really nothing to fear. This comes from the mind being in touch with itself.

To find alot of joy in dhamma, one must trust alot, the mind must trust alot, and practise the path fully.

But still, to find all-pervasive joy is not the easiest thing to do. It requires alot of work, alot of trust, it requires endurance.

Kind regards

Element

[remstaling]

Suñña Sutta: Empty. SN 35.85

And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self? The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self.

"The ear is empty...

"The nose is empty...

"The tongue is empty...

"The body is empty...

"The intellect is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Ideas... Intellect-consciousness... Intellect-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Thus it is said that the world is empty."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....085.than.html

Hi

The above is certainly an emphatic statement of ultimate truth. However, I find the discourse below a more gentle way of into easing into the practise of emptiness. For me, it has always held a certain resonance.

Kind regards

E



"Whatever is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit. And what is not yours?

"The eye is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit. Forms are not yours... Eye-consciousness is not yours... Eye-contact is not yours... Whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit.

"The ear is not yours: let go of it...

"The nose is not yours: let go of it...

"The tongue is not yours: let go of it...

"The body is not yours: let go of it...

"The mind is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit. Ideas are not yours...
Mind-consciousness is not yours... Mind-contact is not yours... Whatever arises in dependence on mind-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit.

"Suppose a person were to gather or burn or do as he likes with the grass, twigs, branches, & leaves here in Jeta's Grove. Would the thought occur to you: 'It is us that this person is gathering, burning, or doing with as he likes'?"

"No, lord. Why is that? Because those things are not our self nor do they pertain to our self."

"In the same way, monks, the eye is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The mind is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... Whatever arises in dependence on mind-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit."

Na Tumhaka Sutta: Not Yours

[flielagit]

School mistress!

I find the discourse below a more gentle way of into easing into the practise of emptiness. For me, it has always held a certain resonance.

Thank you, Element

[PerfectCreditForYou]

I must be really stupid because I can't figure out how to respond to a poster, specifically, and see things that look like multiple posts.

I'm mostly answering Aloka-D but my comments are for anyone who is interested.

I have studied for 2 years with Rodney Smith in Seattle. I currently meditate with a group that is Advaita Vedanta but who welcome people of all faiths, including Theravada.

However, my meditation style is mostly Buddhist. I do a combination of a tranquility practice, which for me is focusing on the breath. For tranquility practice, that is usually a beginner's way, whether Vedanta or Buddhism. Then, additionally, I have listened to numerous Buddhists CDs and read primarily Buddhist books, both Theravadan and others, like Pema Chodren, who is Tibetan (obviously).

The main CD I go by is Mindfulness Way Through Depression. Someone above has said this is emptiness training. Their emphasis is that emotional turmoil is caused, because we believe our own thoughts to be reality, when they are not. As far as I know, this is Theravedan meditation. Pema Chodren emphasizes this as well.

My confusion seems to be being on multiple Theravadan lists.

I was on one list, where I was saying that when Buddhism goes into "things are unsatisfactory", "things are empty" that this sounds very nihilistic, and sounds like it came out the mouth of someone with clinical depression! A poster on one list brilliantly clarified that, no, it is not nihilistic or depression, it's a realization that things are unsatisfactory, but that by realizing things are unsatisfactory, we have a chance of liberation, and joy - therefore not nihilistic.

When I asked him, how we go about this liberation, he of course referred to the 4NTs and precepts. Meditation, Mindfulness in daily life, following the precepts, and in this way we are liberated and free.

What I am saying is that I have been meditating for two years. My meditation is 20 minutes of tranquility meditation. For my first 20 minutes, I focus on the breath, and come back to the breath. Then the next 20 minutes is mindfulness as taught in the CD Mindfulness Path Through Depression but I have another Joseph Goldstein CD set right after I do the Depressioni CD since I am doing that set again due to recent depression. I also do the "body scans" as well as Yoga Nidra, which is pretty much progressive relaxation - both seeming pretty similar. As far as I know the CD is Mindfulness Meditation or Theravadan. Then I sometimes add a 3rd sitting of 20 minutes often as "experimental" (I used to be a scientist).

It really would be very hard for me to go to a Theravadan teacher, it would be a two hour round trip drive. So, while I think I gain many realizations living out in nature, as I do, it would be unrealistic to see a teacher on a regular basis.

Most of the time, I'm either reading, doing a DVD or CD, mostly Theravadan, but I feel that I am at such a beginner level, that many times, listening to someone like Pema Chodren, also yields insights.

I don't feel any different now that I have meditated for two years, and also giving up revenge, and just being as nice as I can, to follow the precepts, and not drinking alcohol, avoiding intoxicants. I am just wondering what I am doing wrong, that I don't feel even 1% liberated.

You can decide if at 2 years of meditation, whether that makes me a "beginner" or not.

Best,
True

Cold and Clear here in Minnesota but Oy vey!

[brandiweb]

It really would be very hard for me to go to a Theravadan teacher, it would be a two hour round trip drive.

I don't feel any different now that I have meditated for two years, and also giving up revenge, and just being as nice as I can, to follow the precepts, and not drinking alcohol, avoiding intoxicants. I am just wondering what I am doing wrong, that I don't feel even 1% liberated.

Hi Truelotus

You sound like you have some excellent teachers and excellent Dhamma resources.

As for not feeling even 1% liberated, I can only reply "keep practising".

That you have overcome fear and have some freedom from depression is inspiring to hear.

I enjoyed reading your routine and what sounded like a strong committment on your behalf.

Have you ever taken a holiday for a week or two to visit a monastery, dhamma community or do a retreat?

Kind regards

E