[PymnImmen]

I have studied for 2 years with Rodney Smith in Seattle. I currently meditate with a group that is Advaita Vedanta but who welcome people of all faiths, including Theravada.

Hi Truelotus,

I did some checking, because I don't live in the USA. I found that Rodney Smith teaches at the Seattle Insight Meditation Society. I'm therefore wondering if it might still be possible for you to get some meditation instruction from that group by phone or e-mail if its too far away.

Anyway, I'm not a meditation instructor myself, so I'm not sure how best to advise you - all I can say is that I really admire your continued interest and involvement and to most definately "keep practising" as Element has said already.

Element has given you some very good advice - and he's an experienced meditator himself.


with kind wishes,

Aloka-D

Cold wet and windy here in the UK !

[ElectraDupu]

This little quote is from Ajahn Sumedho, UK abbot with the Theravada Thai Forest Tradition. Its taken from the chapter "Only one breath" from "The Way it Is" which is available to read online.

For me its a reminder not to try to hold onto past states, or onto states that I think I haven't achieved, or that might be attainable in the future.... but to just relax with the here and now.



"The dangers in meditation practice is the habit of grasping at things, grasping at states; so the concept that's most useful is the concept of letting go, rather than of attaining and achieving.

If you say today that yesterday you had a really super meditation, absolutely fantastic, just what you've always dreamed of, and then today you try to get the same wonderful experience as yesterday, but you get more restless and more agitated than ever before - now why is that?

Why can't we get what we want? It's because we're trying to attain something that we remember; rather than really working with the way things are, as they happen to be now. So the correct way is one of mindfulness, of looking at the way it is now, rather than remembering yesterday and trying to get to that state again." Source:
http://www.amaravati.org/abm/english..._is/13oob.html

[Abarricoss]

For me its a reminder not to try to hold onto past states, or onto states that I think I haven't achieved, or that might be attainable in the future.... but to just relax with the here and now.

This is of paramount importance in day a day practice of what Buddha taught... so to think in past lives, future realms and such is grasping and loosing the here and now momentum of mindfulness state of mind...

[cepAceryTem]

The only emptiness I know of is that "phenomena are empty of self". If someone just says phenomena are empty, I am going to be really confused

[TpDoctorOneTp]

It goes to the fact that the Dhamma isn't ontology; it makes no statement about the constituency of a discreet objective world, but is instead a statement about a way to frame one's epistemological experience which is comprehensive, consistent, and which leads to the cessation of suffering.

[broksaksaak]

Originally Posted by Truelotus It really would be very hard for me to go to a Theravadan teacher, it would be a two hour round trip drive.

I don't feel any different now that I have meditated for two years, and also giving up revenge, and just being as nice as I can, to follow the precepts, and not drinking alcohol, avoiding intoxicants. I am just wondering what I am doing wrong, that I don't feel even 1% liberated.

Hi Truelotus

You sound like you have some excellent teachers and excellent Dhamma resources.

As for not feeling even 1% liberated, I can only reply "keep practising".

That you have overcome fear and have some freedom from depression is inspiring to hear.

I enjoyed reading your routine and what sounded like a strong committment on your behalf.

Have you ever taken a holiday for a week or two to visit a monastery, dhamma community or do a retreat?

Kind regards

E

I guess you are right. I have got *some* control over depression and I used to get panic attacks every day, and now, let's see, it's been two years and two months since I've had one.

However, I don't feel liberated or having equanimity or joy.

Yes, I have thought of going on a retreat. I was considering going to Plum Village before we decided to go to Maui. I realize Plum Village would be Mahayana, but I consider myself at a basic, if not beginner level and any retreat would probably make my practice deeper. Another place I can hang out is the Vedanta meditation center. It is quite permissible to do Theravadan meditation there, and actually, Swamiji recommended it for me.

The main thing I like about Buddhism is that it is very logical, and so, as I say in a past life, being a scientist, it appeals to me.

Best,
True

[Soypopetype]

Originally Posted by Truelotus I have studied for 2 years with Rodney Smith in Seattle. I currently meditate with a group that is Advaita Vedanta but who welcome people of all faiths, including Theravada.

Hi Truelotus,

I did some checking, because I don't live in the USA. I found that Rodney Smith teaches at the Seattle Insight Meditation Society. I'm therefore wondering if it might still be possible for you to get some meditation instruction from that group by phone or e-mail if its too far away. *Wow, that was really a loooooong time ago, and I'm sure he doesn't remember me. That must have been around 12 years ago, where I decided to do a meditation class right after work at the U of W, and then by the time the class was over, the traffic died down. We ultimately moved away from Seattle, partially due to traffic.

*I did email him once, and he got back to me.

*I also have a person who I can call, who I consider a teacher. He studies the suttas, lives by them, and has a small group who practice with him. I can call him any time I have questions. But what the DVDs and CDs do is raise those questions.

*Third resource for me, is Vedanta meditation school. My psychotherapist, is a advanced meditator, and again, since I'm at such a basic level, anything he tells me is great. The current meditation I'm doing is called 2:4 breathing. It is inhale and count two and exhale, count four. I also found this type of breath recommended on a very expensive set of CDs/DVDs for anxiety and depression, and so I had a practice! That is what I do with my first 20 minutes, but often do 20 more or 40 more. I cut the meditation time at 20 minutes as my foot falls badly asleep and I get up every twenty minutes so that if I have to get up quickly I won't trip over myself!

Anyway, I'm not a meditation instructor myself, so I'm not sure how best to advise you - all I can say is that I really admire your continued interest and involvement and to most definately "keep practising" as Element has said already. *I think the 2:4 breathing is a "tranquility" practice, or, I think in Buddhism, called "samatha"(?).

Element has given you some very good advice - and he's an experienced meditator himself.


with kind wishes,

Aloka-D *Thanks. Uh, when I preview this, it is in normal font, not any markup language and wonder if this is the correct way to specifically respond to a person?? Usually, I'll add an asterisk to my answer, to make it clear that I am answering vs. what has already been posted.

Best,
True



Cold wet and windy here in the UK !

with kind wishes,

Aloka-D

[Soresbox]

I wanted to talk about Joy and meditation, since I've brought it up already.

On May 25, 2008 at 5:02pm a tornado struck my neighborhood, completely destroyed our house, and killed one child, the other child permanently disabled, and a few people had heart attacks. Minnesota is not a big tornado state, so this is relatively rare.

You all are talking about not grasping at a "mind state", but this joy was really different, and I wonder who I am and what I am when I think about it.

What I would have predicted, if you would have asked me what I would experience after a tornado, I would tell you that I was already having anxiety problems and that this tornado would drive me to the mental house. My friends all thought this as well. Everyone and his brother called me to make sure I was all right. I did spend the first two days in the hospital. I wanted them to treat my asthma after screaming for so long, and instead they gave me tranquilizers.

What happened, instead, is, after screaming for about 6 minutes, looking for my cats, securing the dogs, and calling 911, I started to feel joy. I felt the joy of being alive. Not only did I feel joy, but I felt joy for about 7 months.

I wonder if this is a trick of the mind, or, if I really do have joy somewhere in here, waiting for the next tornado?

My husband, who was not home, his experience was not joy, but observing that everything was gone, and almost weeping.

I was so in joy, that I was dancing in the street when the golf ball sized hail was hitting my head, I was "Yeah! Hail is hitting my head, I'm so happy!". Then my husband dragged me under what was left of our garage door.

I don't mean this to be a story about a tornado just a reflection I have, before I meditate.

It's really a story of the potential of our minds. It just has always made me curious about who I really am, and I wonder if my concepts about myself, are limiting me in some way, that the tornado liberated.

Joy? I'm just trying to deal with depression. How could I feel joy, upon the destruction of our home? It seems quite impossible.

I have given up trying to relive the joy I felt back then, but it certainly stands as a curiosity to me, and I often think about it when I meditate.

Also, people ask me, if I thought differently or did something differently that allowed me to feel joy, and that's not the case. It just happened, and came gushing out of nowhere.

Best,
True

P.S. The story ended happily with our insurance paying out, all our pets saved, a lot of art, clothes, etc. was salvaged. We live in a much nicer place now. 8)

[clomoll]

Hi Truelotus

Thank you for sharing your story, I think I understand what you mean when you describe joy and the way you have experienced it.

I have also been meditating daily for around 2 years and suffer from depression as well. I have had some peace and contentment from my practice, but joy definitely eludes me. In my opinion, it may be around our definition of what joy is. To you it sounds like a near death experience affected you and you were joyous that you were still alive. I'm fortunate enough not to have had to deal with that sort of experience, however, I can understand how it would affect you in this way.

For me personally, the word joy brings up thoughts of a 'better' or 'happier' experience in life. These words make me frustrated as though it's something I should be achieving. When I remind myself that these things are just thoughts and feelings coming and going I realise I can let go of them, and they will pass.

I'm only just starting to study the suttas, but I have already found them incredibly helpful in understanding suffering, impermanance, and not-self. Along with the advice I have received here, I'm starting to have a degree of equanimity and stability in practice. I think Kaarine Alejandra's comment around 'just do it because' (mentioned in another post) rings true to me. At the end of the day, all we can do is try to be with how things are, joy, happiness, fear, anxiety, whatever. I keep practicing because it has had a positive effect on my life and I aspire to be free. Whether it happens or not doesn't matter, at least I'm not harming anyone

[GalasaKoll]

Hi Truelotus

Thank you for sharing your story, I think I understand what you mean when you describe joy and the way you have experienced it.

I have also been meditating daily for around 2 years and suffer from depression as well. I have had some peace and contentment from my practice, but joy definitely eludes me. In my opinion, it may be around our definition of what joy is. To you it sounds like a near death experience affected you and you were joyous that you were still alive. I'm fortunate enough not to have had to deal with that sort of experience, however, I can understand how it would affect you in this way.

For me personally, the word joy brings up thoughts of a 'better' or 'happier' experience in life. These words make me frustrated as though it's something I should be achieving. When I remind myself that these things are just thoughts and feelings coming and going I realise I can let go of them, and they will pass.

I'm only just starting to study the suttas, but I have already found them incredibly helpful in understanding suffering, impermanance, and not-self. Along with the advice I have received here, I'm starting to have a degree of equanimity and stability in practice. I think Kaarine Alejandra's comment around 'just do it because' (mentioned in another post) rings true to me. At the end of the day, all we can do is try to be with how things are, joy, happiness, fear, anxiety, whatever. I keep practicing because it has had a positive effect on my life and I aspire to be free. Whether it happens or not doesn't matter, at least I'm not harming anyone

Hi, Jade Rabbit,

OK, I'm responding after the quote mark, but then can't address you paragraph by paragraph. You are correct, I have a bit of attachment to the joy that welled up inside of me, and stayed for around 7 months. It was actually kind of supernatural and I wonder where it came from and whether it is still in there somewhere.

Being a person who is frequently depressed, part of the Mindful Way Through Depression, is, indeed, as you mention above, that they are only thoughts. Thoughts are only as important as you make them. Then, sometimes when I get depressed, I also have a sensation of "heaviness" and not only do I say "these are just thoughts" but also "these are just sensations".

Yes, and then with anxiety, both cognitive behavioral therapist and Mindfulness, you just have to accept your anxiety thoughts and feelings. I hate the feeling, but there is nothing else to do, than just accept it, and wait for it to pass. Fighting it makes it worse.

As you say above, I have not studied the suttras very much, and I think the important thing with meditation is to just do it. Even if you don't find enlightenment, or bliss or joy, IMHO, it does have positive mental health benefits. I do like to compare it to learning the piano, since I play the piano. You get "better" (for lack of a better term) the more you practice.

Best,
True

With UNGODLY HOLY SH*T fall color and being 80F, clear skies, I wonder what state I'm living in 8)

[Lhtfajba]

Some tangential remarks have been tidied up, but meditation and joy was more properly a topic for a new thread; the original investigation line opened by this thread was a question on emptiness as related to both experience generally, and the experience of a self specifically. Returning to this topic here will be the most fruitful - everyone should feel free to make new topics on the forum as the mood strikes.

[jobsfancy]

Some tangential remarks have been tidied up, but meditation and joy was more properly a topic for a new thread; the original investigation line opened by this thread was a question on emptiness as related to both experience generally, and the experience of a self specifically. Returning to this topic here will be the most fruitful - everyone should feel free to make new topics on the forum as the mood strikes.

How do you start a new thread, and where should I start it?

[Shipsyspeepay]

On the page when you view the index of forum areas, click the area you feel the post will best fit within. On that page, viewing the posts for that area, on the top-right there is a link for , and from there things will be self-explanatory. Be sure to include a title!

[AdobebePhoto]

Hi Truelotus,

The Beginners to Buddhism forum would probably be the best place, since that is where people who are beginners, or else who are fairly newish to Buddhism and on their second year or so of classes, usually discuss meditation or their meditation classes and retreats.

When starting a new topic, click on a forum heading, then you'll see a list of topic for that forum. At the bottom of the page you'll see it says "New Topic ". Click on that and a message box will appear with a space above it for a title. Fill in your title and then write your first post for the topic in the message box.

You can always edit or delete posts after you have written and posted them, by the way.

....OOPS, Sobeh and I both posted at the same time. Yes - it says 'New Topic' at the top right, as well as the bottom when viewing the topic list in a forum !

Anyway, hope that helps !

[HaseBeceDeemy]

Anyone else have anything to say on the subject of emptiness?

[Gmvkgkmn]

I just thought I'd mention why I think joy and emptiness are related and why I posted to this thread.

When people talk about emptiness, to me, it brings up a negative connotation, like perhaps "meaningless" rather than "emptiness" and "emptiness" sounds very nihilistic. However, I think "emptiness" is a state of joy, and on other Theravadan lists, has been explained as such. So, basically, I'm talking about the nature of emptiness, which is joy. Hope that makes sense.

Best,

True

[purchasviagra]

Hi Truelotus,

The Beginners to Buddhism forum would probably be the best place, since that is where people who are beginners, or else who are fairly newish to Buddhism and on their second year or so of classes, usually discuss meditation or their meditation classes and retreats.

When starting a new topic, click on a forum heading, then you'll see a list of topic for that forum. At the bottom of the page you'll see it says "New Topic ". Click on that and a message box will appear with a space above it for a title. Fill in your title and then write your first post for the topic in the message box.

You can always edit or delete posts after you have written and posted them, by the way.

....OOPS, Sobeh and I both posted at the same time. Yes - it says 'New Topic' at the top right, as well as the bottom when viewing the topic list in a forum !

Anyway, hope that helps !

I see various forums where I may post, and understand that part, but I have been unable to find Buddhism for Beginners. I did see Buddhism therapy, and think that might work as I'm now re-examining Minful Way Through Depression. I just thought I'd mention that their "solution" to depression is to stop thinking about what life "should" be at any given moment and accepting what is at any given moment, and living fully in the present. That' s pretty Buddhist I think, and it works great! My mind cleared almost immediately, and I've been depressed for the last few weeks and seems to have lifted.

[Mabeavyledlib]

OK, I just found Buddhism for Beginners