[benderkoz]

Hi

Imagine when the Western scholars first came upon Buddhism, in places like Sri Lanka, where the common folks & monks all believed in rebirth. Naturally, they would have thought the essence of Buddhism was rebirth.

So far, I have found the following Pali words, which are translated as or implied to be rebirth:

Abhinibbatti

Punabbhava

Upapannā

Opapātikā

Upapajjati

Upatti

Sopapajjati

Any more?

[Mearticbaibre]

Even "jati" by itself gets translated as "rebirth".

[MondayBlues]

puna-b,bhavâbhinibatti, from AN 3:76 & 77

[Cvo1iRT0]

Dear Element,

And do you have any hypothesis about why rebirth become an obsession for Westerns?

[TeksPaisimi]

Rebirth is an obsession in the West because it's an obsession of the two largest sources of Buddhism in the West: Japanese Zen and Tibetan Vajrayana.

[Dreaming]

Thanks Sobeh,

I do not know too much about Vajarayana, but in the Zen tradition with which I practice we do not withstand our practice in rebirth but in the here and now. Mainly we hold up in zazen. Maybe, other schools of Zen hold on rebirth most of which I do not know deeply to tell.

[alex_loudermilk]

It's a good point; I'm mainly reminiscing about my first exposure to both schools and the salient features at the time, which was roughly 15 years ago.

However, despite how things are taught here or there now, when Buddhism was first brought to the West rebirth was very salient in Zen since it was easily contrasted against Western notions of an afterlife - Zen still remains connected to Bodhisattva ideas, and those are inseparable from concepts to do with reincarnation. (The Tibetan case is more obvious in this respect.)

[Scukonaher]

Zen still remains connected to Bodhisattva ideas

This is an issue I wanted to bring into light here...

Zen has some traditions that are about accent or emphasis like the Rinsai and Soto. Within this traditions, for example, in the case of Soto there are the so called "schools" which deal with some concrete aspects like the suttas of a particular Ancestor or an specific sutta or teaching. For example, the one with which I practice, his founder was Taisan Maetsumi. Under his guidance we are tightly committed with the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Noble Path. Also we are devoted to the Bendowa and the Genjo Koan of the Dogen's Shobogenzo and the sutta or our Third Ancestor, Sosan. We also agree with the teachings of Joko Beck and other.

This has become into a tradition where the Bodhisattva ideal is not heavily present or do not rule our practice. In this sense we are much more connected with the Arahat ideal than with that of the Bodhisattva. We also do not recognize as fundamental the Lotto sutta or the Heart Sutta for example, and the issue of rebirth is for us not important because what is important is the practice "per se", the here and now, zazen without purpose, Dana paramita "just because" because we think "that the rest" [what ever it is], not being in "our hands", if it is there, it will be realized by itself so this "things" or "ideas" are not present in our practice and even more... zazen and the rest of our practice has no room for rebirth or Boddhisatva ideal when they are done with absolute commitment and this commitment comes with the Kais (precepts) and the eight satoris.

[Spongebob]

Someone like taking a try?

At what, making up yet another "re-birth" fairy tale...?

[kenowinnumberss]

buddhism do no believe in rebirth,

dear Sandell

i myself certainly did not propose the teachings of the buddha are absent of rebirth view

i merely posted there are many different words in the Pali scriptures that are translated into English as the one single word 'rebirth'

it would seem some of these words must have a different meaning

kind regards

E

[AnthonyKing]

...chairman of the local Buddhist network organization in my city, would state it to be the sum of actions taking rebirth, something completely not-personal.

dear Sandell

It seems the view of your chairman is contrary to the Buddhist scriptures. In the Buddhist scriptures, rebirth is always something completely personal. There is no evidence anywhere for any departure from this rule of law.

And rightly so because the scriptures say rebirth belief sides with & promotes morality. If rebirth view was impersonal, it would no longer encourage morality. What incentive would believers have to do good if they personally were not the personal recipients of their own good deeds?

The Buddhist scriptures contain two distinct kinds of teachings, namely, mundane (lokiya) and supramundane (lokuttara).

My opinion is any departure from keeping these two kinds of teachings distinct harms the efficacy & purpose of those distinct teachings.

Kind regards

E



Then Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Ananda, having given this instruction to Anathapindika the householder, got up from their seats and left. Then, not long after they left, Anathapindika the householder died and reappeared in the Tusita heaven.

Then Anathapindika the deva's son, in the far extreme of the night, his extreme radiance lighting up the entirety of Jeta's Grove, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, bowed down to him and stood to one side. As he was standing there, he addressed the Blessed One with this verse:


This blessed Jeta's Grove,
home to the community of seers,
where there dwells the Dhamma King:
the source of rapture for me.

As for Sariputta:
any monk who has gone beyond,
at best can only equal him
in discernment, virtue, & calm.

That is what Anathapindika the deva's son said. The Teacher approved. Then Anathapindika the deva's son, [knowing] "The Teacher has approved of me," bowed down to him, circled him three times, keeping him to his right, and then disappeared right there.

Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "Lord, that must have been Anathapindika the deva's son. Anathapindika the householder had supreme confidence in Ven. Sariputta."

"Very good, Ananda. Very good, to the extent that you have deduced what can be arrived at through logic. That was Anathapindika the deva's son and no one else."

Anathapindikovada Sutta

[Figelac]

.

Hi Sandell, and welcome to the group.

We have a Pali -English dictionary in our Study Links section if you'd like to look at what it says for the meanings of some of the words that Element found.

I looked up Punabbhava, for example, and the meaning for the word stated : re-becoming; 'renewed existence', is a Sutta term for 'rebirth' ... ....and so on.

http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud...ct/dic_idx.htm


I hope that helps a little.

Kind regards,

Aloka-D

[Filmania]

...., and the question remains; w h a t is taking reincarnation (if the personal; the personal w h a t-?)

This question presupposes its own answer.

Or, if it does not presuppose its own answer, it negates itself and shows its own assumptions to be invalid.

[doogiehoussi]

A few random thoughts:

If rebirth does not exist, then nothing is reborn. If something is reborn, then it must be something that existed previously, existed in the previous life. In this case, rebirth is precisely the same as reincarnation.

Consider an analogy. There is a field of yellow billiard balls standing on flexible stems. The wind blows and the field of billiard balls is disturbed. Each billiard ball strikes the one next to it, passing on the direction and force of its own motion. A complex pattern of motion begins (call this "life"). This motion continues to the edge of the field. Beyond is a field of blue billiard balls. There is no gap between the two fields. The yellow billiard balls at the edge of the yellow field strike the blue billiard balls at the edge of the blue field, thus passing the direction and force of their own motion on to the field of blue billiard balls, so that the pattern of motion ("life") begun in the yellow field is passed onto the blue field. The motion of the blue field is entirely determined by the motion of the yellow field, but is separate and distinct from the yellow field.

[HunterM]

I looked up Punabbhava, for example, and the meaning for the word stated : re-becoming; 'renewed existence', is a Sutta term for 'rebirth' ... ....and so on.

http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud...ct/dic_idx.htm

This is good stuff. So the term "punabbhava" does not necessarily mean physical birth after death as commonly understood and translated. Re-becoming can surely be a mental process

[BritneySpearsFun@@@]

In this case, rebirth is precisely the same as reincarnation.

Yes. And we see folks like Brahmavamso who uses the two terms interchangeably, for example, on his YouTube video on the subject ( The Process of Rebirth ). The tibetan religions don't bother to try to draw a distinction between the two, and simply use the word "reincarnation". At least they are honest with themselves in that respect.

The motion of the blue field is entirely determined by the motion of the yellow field, but is separate and distinct from the yellow field.

The motion of each ball in either field is predicated upon a measurable, falsifiable mechanism: the physical contact of another ball. Made-up theories about reincarnation/"re-birth" abound, and none of them bothers to suggest a plausible mechanism for transference of "whatever-it-is-that-is-transferred" -- which cannot help but be an "atta', no matter what kind of logical gyrations one employs in their made-up "explanation", which cannot help but be anything more than a fable.

Of course, as soon as that fable is turned into a belief or a belief system, a Flat-Earth Big Lie is born -- and as soon as it is attached to an ethical system, a Flat-Earth-Big-Lie Religion is born.

[nikolapegayyyaasss]

on his YouTube video on the subject

Could someone please tell me how his example of the mangos is a convincing explanation of the rebirth process?

[rassedgesse]

Buddha has never explained rebirth, it is not necessary after all. Just enough to believe so there is such a thing It is no ipso facto escape from credulity to believe in one's own scepticism

[Thydaysuh]

as soon as that fable is turned into a belief or a belief system, a Flat-Earth Big Lie is born -- and as soon as it is attached to an ethical system, a Flat-Earth-Big-Lie Religion is born

Lol

[feroiodpiop]

Just enough to believe so there is such a thing

You mean it is fine to believe it although you cannot explain it?