[Dertrioz]

F1 is a ruthless sport/business but Marko is really taking the urine. Just what is the RB driver program really for?

[forebirdo]

It looks like they're looking for people like Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel, who impressed ever since their F1 debut, and not always in fast cars. In that case, dropping Alguersuari and Buemi was the right call to make, because they aren't that good.

That said, letting Alguersuari without a decent drive (meaning anything other than a HRT drive) for 2012 looks rather harsh, because he has pulled off some nice performances during the year. Perhaps he hasn't been consistent, but neither have some drivers who are around in better teams. And he's only two and a half seasons into his career - apparently, he has speed, but delivering consistent results usually takes more than that.

I agree, Jaime drove some outstanding races particularly in the second half of the season. He was obviously developing all the time and now they just threw him away. That's ok in a way, but why on earth did they have to do it in the middle of December when practically all the seats are taken? That's just nasty for Jaime and Buemi.

[stutnerman]

Nothing personal against either new driver but I hope the 2012 car is an utter dog and they both fail miserably. Jamie was thrown into that seat with no testing and struggled liek hell but I thught this season showed real glimpses of maturing and his talent coming to the fore.

And now he's drive less. Class acts all round at STR and Red Bull management level.

[WhiliaStelt]

Problem is, if Toro Rosso produce a rubbish 2012 car and Vergne and Ricciardo are closely matched, how will anybody be able to tell if they are both really good drivers. There is no sufficient basis of a yardstick. The same as Alguersuari and Buemi.

They would've been much better dropping Buemi and promoted one of Ricciardo and Vergne to see how they compared against an established driver.

The whole thing is a load of nonsense.

I genuinely think Alguersuari is a really good driver, and he needs a second chance and a bit of luck somewhere to get another go.

[imawlBoli]

equally, if they produce a belter of a car and the 2 are equally matched and pick up a few top 6's or even a podium, everyone will proclaim them as the 2nd coming, when in reality the car might have been capable of more.

[BlackBird]

Jean-Eric Vergne has impressed in F3 and in testing with the Torro Rosso. He may have sponsor backing but he is deserving of the ride.

That is the men who crashed into the pitwall at the Nürburgring on a straight earlier this year...

[SkHukV3N]

Problem is, if Toro Rosso produce a rubbish 2012 car and Vergne and Ricciardo are closely matched, how will anybody be able to tell if they are both really good drivers.

It may not be an ideal situation, but team has many ways to analyze performance, like telemetry. An average F1 fan might find it difficult to tell whether both are really good drivers, but the team will know.

Just what is the RB driver program really for?

To find the next real ace? And in order to find him they need to go through many drivers, so can't keep the same ones for long. Also giving opportunities (even if short ones) to many drivers helps with marketing too, because in that way more countries and markets get covered by their F1 programme. So the strategy is that reasonably good ones are given a couple of years in F1. Those, who are vettelesque, will get more.

One problem though is that STR drivers find it difficult to negotiate with other teams. I am not really aware of their freedom in this regard and whether any team would have been interested in, say, Alguersuari. So they are sort of living in their own dimension, cut away from the rest of the F1 world.

[amelveEnromma]

I agree, Jaime drove some outstanding races particularly in the second half of the season. He was obviously developing all the time and now they just threw him away. That's ok in a way, but why on earth did they have to do it in the middle of December when practically all the seats are taken? That's just nasty for Jaime and Buemi.

Tell that to Speed and Bourdais.

[Dertrioz]

It may not be an ideal situation, but team has many ways to analyze performance, like telemetry. An average F1 fan might find it difficult to tell whether both are really good drivers, but the team will know.



To find the next real ace? And in order to find him they need to go through many drivers, so can't keep the same ones for long. Also giving opportunities (even if short ones) to many drivers helps with marketing too, because in that way more countries and markets get covered by their F1 programme. So the strategy is that reasonably good ones are given a couple of years in F1. Those, who are vettelesque, will get more.

One problem though is that STR drivers find it difficult to negotiate with other teams. I am not really aware of their freedom in this regard and whether any team would have been interested in, say, Alguersuari. So they are sort of living in their own dimension, cut away from the rest of the F1 world.

The problem is that RB are dealing with a conveyor belt youngsters. The reality is that there are very, very few drivers to be rightly regarded as special talent. What happens to those who don't match 'expectations'?

Most newcomers need nurturing. DC at times looked out of his depth for Williams, JB had no faith from Briatore but look how their careers turned out.

Jamie looked like a solid F1 driver at the very least and perhaps at least a race winner in the right car.

[GinaGomesz]

So the strategy is that reasonably good ones are given a couple of years in F1. Those, who are vettelesque, will get more.

To be fair to Red Bull they have invested a lot of money in a lot of drivers and so far the real success of their programme has been Vettel (and a can of drink!), but as long as Vettel remains where he is there's really only one seat for another Red Bull driver to show their full potential, and at the moment that's taken by Webber. With so many drivers signed up it's inevitable that many will be discarded along the way.

I do wonder whether up and coming young drivers will be so willing to be a part of the Red Bull programme when they see drivers such as JA (who deserves more IMHO) out of a seat. I'm not sure he, or Buemi, could have done much more.

It's great having a ladder of talent but IMHO others have done a better job for the drivers involved than Red Bull. Look at the drivers who progressed through Paul Stewart Racing for example and excelled. Perhaps they did not do so in F1 (e.g. de Ferran, Franchitti) but PSR gave them an opportunity to develop and their careers benefitted.

[SkHukV3N]

The problem is that RB are dealing with a conveyor belt youngsters. The reality is that there are very, very few drivers to be rightly regarded as special talent. What happens to those who don't match 'expectations'?

Most newcomers need nurturing. DC at times looked out of his depth for Williams, JB had no faith from Briatore but look how their careers turned out.

And indeed RB is looking for those very few special talents. Why should Red Bull endlessly support those, who do not 'match expectations'? What happens? Tough luck. Just like what has happened to Petrov and Senna. Do Lotus/Renault owe anything to these drivers to keep supporting them just because "they showed some promise"?

Red Bull has been 'nurturing' those drivers for a long time, not just F1, but also through feeder series.

Newcomers indeed need nurturing, but those drivers have got 2,5-3 years already, which is enough to establish yourself in F1. And this is way more than, say, Senna's half a year at Renault and people were arguing whether he proved himself or not. The difference with Button's early career is that all STR drivers have had the luxury to stay in the same team with stability to create an efficient working relationship, while Button had to leave Williams and re-build himself.

I think people are too negative. It is not appreciated, how much money Red Bull has been throwing in to support drivers through feeder ranks - without that support they may have got nowhere at all! This doesn't mean Red Bull owes them to support them all their careers.

Yes, tough for a 21-y-o Alguersuari, but if he is any good, he can still come back. Just he needs to look after himself now like many drivers have had to do - a way of maturing. Look at Wickens, he lost Red Bull support 2 years ago. Yet he has managed to come back and win WSR with alternative backing.

[SkHukV3N]

I do wonder whether up and coming young drivers will be so willing to be a part of the Red Bull programme when they see drivers such as JA (who deserves more IMHO) out of a seat. I'm not sure he, or Buemi, could have done much more.

So which programme should a young driver prefer? Let's take a look at Gravity - d'Ambrosio got one year, but seems to be out of the game now.

Oh, and many drivers could have done more in their racing career, not just the Toro Rosso ones. You could turn it around by saying that without Red Bull's support and with the help of an alternative sponsor/driver scheme it is very unlikely either Alguersuari or Buemi would have had 3 years of F1 by now, perhaps no F1 at all!

Red Bull programme is hard, because there have been many drivers and the competition is tight. But it also gives more opportunities, because Red Bull has a special junior F1 team, where you can actually race. No other junior programme has such luxury of additional two F1 race seats just for you, which means that graduating to F1 would be more difficult via alternative junior programme.

[itaspCatCriny]

To be fair to Red Bull they have invested a lot of money in a lot of drivers and so far the real success of their programme has been Vettel (and a can of drink!), but as long as Vettel remains where he is there's really only one seat for another Red Bull driver to show their full potential, and at the moment that's taken by Webber.

RB lost Vettel to BMW as well and were lucky to get him back into STR. It makes you wonder how well thought out the project is if they can lose one of their bright stars to a rival team.

Although F1 is obviously a tough sport to succeed in I do think STR's treatment of Buemi/Alguersuari in particular has been poor. To dump them just before Xmas gives them little to no hope of finding any F1 drive for 2012. The supposed logic behind getting two fresh drivers is that STR is for F1 rookies and Buemi/Alguersuari are no longer rookies. If that is genuinely the case that would have been obvious six months ago so why the late notice?

[SkHukV3N]

RB lost Vettel to BMW as well and were lucky to get him back into STR. It makes you wonder how well thought out the project is if they can lose one of their bright stars to a rival team.

I don't remember so precisely, but wasn't Vettel simply on loan from Red Bull to BMW?

Another thing is that back then Red Bull was no better than a midfield team and it was more difficult to attract special drivers, hence racing for Ferrari/McLaren/BMW perhaps looked like an ultimate goal for any up-and-coming driver as well. But now RBR is the top team and the situation has changed.

Although F1 is obviously a tough sport to succeed in I do think STR's treatment of Buemi/Alguersuari in particular has been poor. To dump them just before Xmas gives them little to no hope of finding any F1 drive for 2012. The supposed logic behind getting two fresh drivers is that STR is for F1 rookies and Buemi/Alguersuari are no longer rookies. If that is genuinely the case that would have been obvious six months ago so why the late notice?

I can agree with the claim that the way RB/STR dropped Alguersuari and Buemi was harsh and it would have been nice to inform them earlier. But the issue here is that F1 negotiations are often not straightforward and simple, leaving everyone content. Perhaps it wasn't nice that McLaren-Alonso found a settlement only in November '07, so that Alonso could find nothing better than Renault? Or John Watson couldn't find a drive for 1984 after getting a late boot from McLaren? I guess the reason for late notice is that STR were considering Alguersuari/Buemi for a long time, hence they didn't drop them earlier. Remember, we heard rumours about a possible Caterham-Ricciardo deal, but for whatever reason it didn't materialize.

[DenisMoor]

To be fair to Red Bull they have invested a lot of money in a lot of drivers and so far the real success of their programme has been Vettel (and a can of drink!), but as long as Vettel remains where he is there's really only one seat for another Red Bull driver to show their full potential, and at the moment that's taken by Webber. With so many drivers signed up it's inevitable that many will be discarded along the way.

I do wonder whether up and coming young drivers will be so willing to be a part of the Red Bull programme when they see drivers such as JA (who deserves more IMHO) out of a seat. I'm not sure he, or Buemi, could have done much more.

It's great having a ladder of talent but IMHO others have done a better job for the drivers involved than Red Bull. Look at the drivers who progressed through Paul Stewart Racing for example and excelled. Perhaps they did not do so in F1 (e.g. de Ferran, Franchitti) but PSR gave them an opportunity to develop and their careers benefitted.

Agreed.
If I was a young driver, I would stay away from the red bull "turnstile" program

I think that this was a pathetic decision by STR, then again I really don't think too highly of their management team anyway
They have consistently made mistakes with their driver selection and this one is no different.
The real problem is the car not the drivers
Now they will spend half the year figuring out the car, the other half having to drivers figuring out F1 and the team
Basically taking two steps back in an attempt to go one step forward
Who knows, In 2013 2 new drivers will probably be in place

As for Buemi and JA, I expect both to be back in F1 in the near future, possibly one at ferrari (Buemi)
and JA would do well to apply for a 3rd driver seat at Mclaren ( as I rate it 50/50 that Hamilton goes to Red Bull if RBR has another dominant season) or another team with aging drivers.

[Dertrioz]

So which programme should a young driver prefer? Let's take a look at Gravity - d'Ambrosio got one year, but seems to be out of the game now.

Oh, and many drivers could have done more in their racing career, not just the Toro Rosso ones. You could turn it around by saying that without Red Bull's support and with the help of an alternative sponsor/driver scheme it is very unlikely either Alguersuari or Buemi would have had 3 years of F1 by now, perhaps no F1 at all!

Red Bull programme is hard, because there have been many drivers and the competition is tight. But it also gives more opportunities, because Red Bull has a special junior F1 team, where you can actually race. No other junior programme has such luxury of additional two F1 race seats just for you, which means that graduating to F1 would be more difficult via alternative junior programme.

Not just F1, but post-F1. Surely there's a degree of corporate responsibility?

For sure there was Scott Speed/NASCAR but that seems like an exception.

Would Jaime still get backing if he raced in a different series? Say for example a non-factory sportscar team? When WSC folded M-B helped Schumi into F1, when DTM folded in the late 90s M-B helped Dario Franchitti into CART.

[itaspCatCriny]

I don't remember so precisely, but wasn't Vettel simply on loan from Red Bull to BMW?

No, I believe he signed a separate contract with BMW who specifically released him so he could go to STR. That wouldn't have been the case had he been on loan.

I can agree with the claim that the way RB/STR dropped Alguersuari and Buemi was harsh and it would have been nice to inform them earlier. But the issue here is that F1 negotiations are often not straightforward and simple, leaving everyone content. Perhaps it wasn't nice that McLaren-Alonso found a settlement only in November '07, so that Alonso could find nothing better than Renault? Or John Watson couldn't find a drive for 1984 after getting a late boot from McLaren? I guess the reason for late notice is that STR were considering Alguersuari/Buemi for a long time, hence they didn't drop them earlier. Remember, we heard rumours about a possible Caterham-Ricciardo deal, but for whatever reason it didn't materialize.

I think most people who have followed F1 are perfectly aware that contract negotiations can be tough and complicated but you're missing something here. Both Alguersuari and Buemi were given the impression they would be carrying on for 2012 and therefore weren't looking elsewhere for drives. Buemi was in a Red Bull simulator at the time he got the call, why bother if he wasn't going to be driving for them in 2012?

With Alonso the driver initiated the move to Renault with his manager also managing the team he wanted to move to. John Watson was getting old and close to retirement anyway.

For the incoming rookies what message does this send? Start performing right away or we will terminate your career? That might work with some personalities but it does not with others and is not good personnel management. Look at how the pressure to perform got to Piquet Junior and what kind of behaviour that lead him to undertake. There are plenty of other less extreme examples with drivers trying too hard because of the pressure they are under and not performing to their best.

Also for STR this is not a good decision. Rookies need some time to bed in and learn the ropes which is why just about every midfield team takes one veteran and one rookie on. This will hurt the team in a very very closely contested part of the grid. Plus it is incredibly difficult to quantify just how good a driver really is unless there is an existing known driver to compare with, ie his teammate.

[SkHukV3N]

I think most people who have followed F1 are perfectly aware that contract negotiations can be tough and complicated but you're missing something here. Both Alguersuari and Buemi were given the impression they would be carrying on for 2012 and therefore weren't looking elsewhere for drives. Buemi was in a Red Bull simulator at the time he got the call, why bother if he wasn't going to be driving for them in 2012?

I think a driver, who does NOT have a contract for next year, should always be checking alternative options as well. I'd think that the recent STR duo was aware that Ric/Ver were at least knocking on the door and they couldn't be so sure about being retained. Of course I don't know, what was going on behind the scenes or whether Tost/Marko were orally lying to the drivers that "don't worry, you'll get the contract". But otherwise a driver should always be busy to secure the future in any possible way unless he has a firm contract. As we have seen in many cases a driver and a team can be "close" to signing a deal, yet it is not going to materialize - one of the latest examples being Räikkönen and Williams.

For the incoming rookies what message does this send? Start performing right away or we will terminate your career?
---
Also for STR this is not a good decision. Rookies need some time to bed in and learn the ropes which is why just about every midfield team takes one veteran and one rookie on. This will hurt the team in a very very closely contested part of the grid. Plus it is incredibly difficult to quantify just how good a driver really is unless there is an existing known driver to compare with, ie his teammate. I would agree if those drivers got a single season in F1. But they got three. Klien also got three. Liuzzi got less (two) and afterwards managed to secure a future elsewhere (Force India). I don't think in retrospect one can say Red Bull did a big mistake by letting them go.

As for STR themselves, they are a unique team in the sense of having a bit different purpose to other teams. The team is for "driver testing" rather than "team development". They are the only team to leave an impression that their ultimate goal is not really to win the world championship. We may disagree with such philosophy and keep arguing that it would be more efficient to have an experienced driver to lead the team forward, but they don't care about that aspect.

[itaspCatCriny]

I think a driver, who does NOT have a contract for next year, should always be checking alternative options as well. I'd think that the recent STR duo was aware that Ric/Ver were at least knocking on the door and they couldn't be so sure about being retained. Of course I don't know, what was going on behind the scenes or whether Tost/Marko were orally lying to the drivers that "don't worry, you'll get the contract".

So you're saying now that Alguersuari and Buemi were both uniquely stupid for drivers this season in not checking out alternatives? Both made it clear that they went into the off-season believing that they would be retained for the following season so the decision was a total shock to them. Do you think that there just might have been something said to them by Tost and Marko that made them think that? If your boss calls you one day about future plans involving you and the team (which both drivers I believe said) then don't you think its natural for them to feel that they would be retained regardless of the contract situation?

As for STR themselves, they are a unique team in the sense of having a bit different purpose to other teams. The team is for "driver testing" rather than "team development". They are the only team to leave an impression that their ultimate goal is not really to win the world championship. We may disagree with such philosophy and keep arguing that it would be more efficient to have an experienced driver to lead the team forward, but they don't care about that aspect.

Sorry but I completely disagree.

STR is there on the grid for the same reasons as everyone else, to make a profit by being productive for their owners and sponsors. Up to this season that has solely meant pleasing Red Bull and your argument is valid to that point. They are now partially owned by an Abu Dhabi based investment firm who have no interest in the Red Bull driver programme. If STR fall back and lose out on prize money because of driver choice do you think the Arab investors might get upset?

[SkHukV3N]

So you're saying now that Alguersuari and Buemi were both uniquely stupid for drivers this season in not checking out alternatives? Both made it clear that they went into the off-season believing that they would be retained for the following season so the decision was a total shock to them. Do you think that there just might have been something said to them by Tost and Marko that made them think that? If your boss calls you one day about future plans involving you and the team (which both drivers I believe said) then don't you think its natural for them to feel that they would be retained regardless of the contract situation?

Sorry but I completely disagree.

STR is there on the grid for the same reasons as everyone else, to make a profit by being productive for their owners and sponsors. Up to this season that has solely meant pleasing Red Bull and your argument is valid to that point. They are now partially owned by an Abu Dhabi based investment firm who have no interest in the Red Bull driver programme. If STR fall back and lose out on prize money because of driver choice do you think the Arab investors might get upset?

You have some good thoughts. But I'm still unsure, how in the fickle world of F1 one can take an "oral confirmation" for certain, even when we have seen already contracted drivers getting sacked. I think Petrov felt comfortable at Renault/Lotus too, in addition he (allegedly) had a contract for 2012. Discussions about involvement in the future of a team can for instance include a third driver role, or whatever.

Fair point about the interest of Arab investors. But the interesting aspect here is that after the arrival of those investors Alguersuari's chances of staying in the team seemed to rise due to Spanish CEPSA (owned by the same Arabs) stickers on the car. Yet it wasn't important for them to keep Alguersuari and they are fine with the completely new line-up.