[carfAball]

As another topic got closed based on my exchange with my new-found BFF, captainraiden, but I thought the content of the thread too valuable to waste (LOL), I will post my last message from that thread here, to spark up the debate that might actually have some interesting points.

Let's keep it civil (LOL)

--------

Being shown the way by Barbie for the last two years somehow doesn't go with the "greatest" theory.

Schumacher has been faster than Barbie in most races this year.

DC was never a contender, only when Mika lost his passion. So mika lost his passion in 1997?


And on equal terms, Hakkinen was very much a match for Michael. LOL. Mika was nowhere near as good as MS. Unless you want to claim McLaren and Ferrari were equal in 1998?

It took Ferrari a whole lot of testing and new parts for Michael to finally take that crown in 2000, for ex. the 049b engine Monza 2000 onwards, and the fact that Bridgestone favored Ferrari mid season, the reason why so many teams jumped to Michelin when they entered the sport. Ferrari was the only team to bring upgrades and new developments to their car throughout the season?


Schumacher's WDC in 1994 is clouded by his "accident" with Hill, and the WDC in 1995 also tainted because of Benetton's mysterious traction control. 2001, 2002 and 2004 championships were won in clearly the best car in the field, which any of the top tier drivers now could do just as easily. 1) The accident with Hill was 100% the fault of Damon. There was no room for him, there never was going to be any room for him, yet he stupidly tried to bully his way through.
2)In 1995 there were no TC accusations and no TC was ever found on Benetton. Now, McLaren is a different case in that they actually got caught cheating in 1994.
Oh and DC admitted that Williams Renault tested the car with TC after it was banned already. Cheaters!

Besides age is not a valid excuse anymore. Rubens is only 3 years younger, and he did absolutely fine against Button in 2009, and is doing so now too against a much younger Maldonado. Yeah, Maldonado the superstar.

I've seen 45+ year old combat sport veterans outstrike and outlast much younger opponents. Agreed they don't have to endure g-forces, but people who have been athletes all their life, have a much longer prime period, and their reflexes are still very strong for a very long time.

The second excuse is time away from sport. Well, he has had two winter testing periods and almost two seasons under his belt now, and I'm sure many, many hours in the simulator. When is he gonna start beating Nico Rosberg decisively and consistently?
He's just about only matching him now. Does he need half a decade to get used to racing again?? MS does not use the simulator for the same reason Kimi doesnt - they get sick in it.
Do you think MS is as good now as he was in 2001?


Agreed that he brings in good sponsorship money, and it makes sense as the whole German Mercedes-Schumacher affair, but there are a lot more capable drivers out there who would be making good use of that seat. LOL. Like who? Name one.

Because Ferrari clearly had the biggest budget of all in those years, and the years following, everybody knows this. Only Toyota had a bigger budget than Ferrari and Mclaren in 2008. And before you go on describing Michael as some brilliant car setup guy, the biggest piece of the pie goes to the actual engineers, designers and mechanics who worked at the factory. The only thing you have right here is that Michael or no other driver designs the car. Driver has very little to do with the quality of his car, that is up to the engineers.

How old are you? Are you aware of the whole 1994 controversy at all? I would have asked you to Google it, but here, I'll help ya out: 1994 Formula One cheating controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

F1 News - Grandprix.com > GP Encyclopedia > People > Tad Czapski

That Benetton still to this day is one of the most blatantly illegal cars to ever win a championship. There were allegations that Benetton were still using it in 1995. Also, search Youtube for Michael's "brilliant" starts during the Benetton years where he used to gobble up 3-4 cars within the first 50 meters. *cough* illegal launch control. *cough* Name examples of those super starts he had in 1994 and 1995 where he overtook many cars at the start? Examples!
The only brilliant start he had was at France in 1994 where he went from 3rd to 1st, but other than that he had plenty of bad starts.

The flexible wings row was again an allegation at Ferrari during, surprise, surprise, Michael's time there. The double diffuser wasn't cheating, or else they'd have banned it. Instead, they allowed all the other teams to come up with their own interpretations. If the double diffuser was so advantageous, Toyota would have won as well, as them and Brawn were the only ones coming out of the box with it. Were Ferrari punished for it? No.
Was it illegal? No


Also, Michael didn't win the 1994 championship "fair and square". Shamelessly punting out your championship rival at the last race of the season is not "fair and square". The one who did the punting was stupid Damon who tried to overtake in a place where it was impossible.

See Michael and Damon accident at Adelaide 1994. He was using illegal TC, and yet was about to get beaten by Damon Hill, and when he saw the championship slipping away, he just turned into Damon, breaking his suspension arm. I don't think any other driver in the modern era has been that blatantly ruthless, careless and cheating. Now, the way Button, Seb and Lewis have won their championship is what you call fair and square. Again you keep going on about TC and Benetton having it. Reality is not your friend though. TC was never found on the Benetton, never was there any proof they used it. Do you have proof that they used it? If you dont, then admit you were speaking BS.

BTW he was disqualified twice during 1994. Do you even know for what?

Ferrari were disqualified at the end of 1999 as well for using illegal barge boards, and then FIA withdrew the disqualification and let them fight for the title at Suzuka. Guess because they knew the disqualification was pure crap and the wrong decision to make.


Also in 2003, when Ferrari and your precious Schumi were getting beaten, they launched a protest against Michelin regarding tyre width, which BTW was the same since 2001. FIA banned those tyres mid-season, which allowed Michael and Ferrari to take the 2003 crown. These are the kinds of incidents that got FIA the infamous name, "Ferrari International Assiatance" FYI. Even the great Ross Brawn was struggling for answers. So Michelin was cheating for over 2 years? That is just disgusting.


So, the 1994 title was won in a blatantly illegal car. Damon dropped the ball in 1995. 2001, 2002, 2004 titles won in clearly the best car in the field, 2003 title again shrouded in controversy, won by only two points over the newbie Kimi, and all this while his biggest competition being DC, Montoya and his little brother. Overrated driver? Yes. His "greatness" is simply overamplified by his impressive stats, which either Alonso, Lewis, Seb or Webber would have achieved in those dominating Ferraris, as Kimi demonstrated in 2007 by winning the WDC. LOL.
Where is your proof that Benetton was illegal in 1994?

With better races, he can definitely outclass Michael, as he did last year. He has been slower in races, faster in qualifying.


athletes even as old as 48 have done pretty well in other sports. F1 is not "other sports".
Sure you can be great at darts even at 60, but F1 is a different kind of sport.


The only reason he held up Lewis at Monza was because his Mercedes wasn't running the DRS wing, and Lewis' Mclaren was, and hence Lewis couldn't get in the slipsteam anywhere else on the track but in the DRS zones. On other parts of the track he was blocking like a bitch, and the FIA had to warn him for that. And even when Lewis did get in the slipstream on the start/finish straight, the way his engine was set up, kept hitting the rev limiter much before Michael did. It's just simple stuff if you paid more attention. Just don't be like other Michael fanboys, they have an orgasm anytime he's anywhere near the top or mixing it with the big boys, and every other "detail" is conveniently ignored. MS was teaching a nice lesson to Hamilton at Monza and such blocking should be part of racing. Why bother racing if you just have to give up your place to the guy behind you?
That FIA has moved in to ban such racing only makes me less of an f1 fan. I have missed the last few races and have had zero interest in what is happening in F1 nowadays.

[Hervams]

Schumacher is overrated IMO. Thats about it.

[prowsnobswend]

And he denied crashing with Levy into Jupiter in 1994*

*Obscure science reference and pun!

[RayFairhurst]

And he denied crashing with Levy into Jupiter in 1994*

*Obscure science reference and pun!

Hardly obscure!!

[italertb]

Schumi is and always will be one of the all time greats. The people that use his lack of pace to Rosberg at his age now to slam his past achievements are just the same people that didn't like him winning at Ferrari. Most of them are probably British.

Schumacher is in the top 3 of all time. You don't win 7 championships by luck alone, you win it through a combination of luck and sheer brilliance.

[Hervams]

Most of them are probably British.

They could also be Brazilian, Finnish, French Canadian, or Spanish too.....Probably

[sbgctsa]

Schumacher is overrated IMO. Thats about it.

Murray Walker would disagree. But then again what does he know about F1?

[Optosypoeds]

Schumi is and always will be one of the all time greats. The people that use his lack of pace to Rosberg at his age now to slam his past achievements are just the same people that didn't like him winning at Ferrari. Most of them are probably British.

Schumacher is in the top 3 of all time. You don't win 7 championships by luck alone, you win it through a combination of luck and sheer brilliance.

+1

Murray Walker would disagree. But then again what does he know about F1?

Truly, after Schumi's retirement in 2006 there was an interview clipping and he was asked to rate between Senna & MS. I wont compare both drivers, to me they represent the very best of F1, neither ahead nor behind.

[Hervams]

Murray Walker would disagree. But then again what does he know about F1?

Jackie Stewart has got 3 WDC's and he wouldn't agree, but then again it does make me wonder whether or not he would take this thread alot more seriously than I have.

[Optosypoeds]

Jackie Stewart has got 3 WDC's and he wouldn't agree, but then again it does make me wonder whether or not he would take this thread alot more seriously than I have.

Not saying Jackie Stewart has less credibility, but as a person travelling with the F1 circle for those many years, and seeing drivers race after race as closely as Murray Walker did, I certainly dont think Stewart saw as much.

[Hervams]

Not saying Jackie Stewart has less credibility, but as a person travelling with the F1 circle for those many years, and seeing drivers race after race as closely as Murray Walker did, I certainly dont think Stewart saw as much.

I agree. Murray is a national treasure and I very much enjoyed his commentary as a kid. I wasn't comparing, just pointing out the obvious point that everyone has a different opinion and are entitled to it regardless of whether it differs or not..

[itaspCatCriny]

Regarding the Benetton in 1994 and TC, IIRC they were found to have it in the software of their launch control but claimed they didn't use it. The FIA couldn't prove otherwise.

I watched the 'Senna' film with the extra interviews a few days ago. I was struck by the description of the '94 Benetton especially by Ron Dennis who normally words things very carefully. I expected him to hedge but he talked about the Benetton cheating with the TC as being fact, not alleged.

[sbgctsa]

Jackie Stewart has got 3 WDC's and he wouldn't agree, but then again it does make me wonder whether or not he would take this thread alot more seriously than I have.

Jackie has always been very subjective, or should I say heavily biased?

[sbgctsa]

Regarding the Benetton in 1994 and TC, IIRC they were found to have it in the software of their launch control but claimed they didn't use it. The FIA couldn't prove otherwise.

I watched the 'Senna' film with the extra interviews a few days ago. I was struck by the description of the '94 Benetton especially by Ron Dennis who normally words things very carefully. I expected him to hedge but he talked about the Benetton cheating with the TC as being fact, not alleged.

Does this mean that Ron had the proof but ate it? Or was he just being himself? Cause if he would have had the proof he wouldn't have kept it for himself.

[Hervams]

Jackie has always been very subjective, or should I say heavily biased?

But so are you?
We are all biased to a degree (you more so than others IMO) and that arguement really carries no weight if you are trying to use it to prove a point.

[HawksBurnDown]

schumi's wonderful career - is going to end on an extremely positive note? Like P4 in some race ?

[JessicaLin]

Ahhhh, the famous 'Schumy Messiah ' vs 'Schumy Cheat' debate. It ranks right up there with the 'Guns / no Guns', Conservative vs Labour, the existence of God and the Chicken and Egg arguments.

I think a lot of people believe he was one of the most ruthless and talented drivers to have sat behind a wheel but who acquired a couple of his crowns by cheating; either punting off rivals or illegal cars.

It's pretty unlikely that anyone will change their minds now but don't let that get in the way of a good bun fight.

[SkHukV3N]

Schumi has had a wonderful career indeed. So what are we supposed to debate here?

In addition to his past achievements one thing that I find astonishing that he might keep going until the age of 45 in F1 if recent rumours are anything to go by. Perhaps he will make it to 47 - you know, can't be worse than Fangio!

Quite sensational to see Schumacher in such good form at such age, but it looks like there are a few drivers, who are capable of it. So from that point of view Schumi is perhaps like Mario Andretti, who was a frontrunner in IndyCar into his 50's. And I guess, if for some reason Andretti had gone to race in F1 in late 80's (in his late 40's), he wouldn't have been very embarrassing.

[poRmawayncmop]

Jackie has always been very subjective, or should I say heavily biased?

As opposed to your utterly balanced view?

[Rurcextedutty]

As another topic got closed based on my exchange with my new-found BFF, captainraiden, but I thought the content of the thread too valuable to waste (LOL), I will post my last message from that thread here, to spark up the debate that might actually have some interesting points.

Eh, the tube steak expert is back with a troll thread. Obvious bait thread is obvious, but well, I'll bite.

Let's keep it civil (LOL)

LOL

Schumacher has been faster than Barbie in most races this year.

The fact remains that Nico is still ahead of Schumacher in the points table, just like he was last year. Wasn't it you who naively claimed at MS' return that he will beat Nico Rosberg in his return year? LOL. Thoroughly outclassed. Barbie just has to sort out his racecraft, and he'll put MS in his place back again. Or his race pace this year could also be affected by Pirellis, just as Lewis has been quite sub-par compared to Button during races, and how Webber has struggled against Seb as well.

So mika lost his passion in 1997?

Given that he had extra DNFs and incidents, and the difference in the points table wasn't huge at year end, I'd say it was just a one-off for Mika. DC was thoroughly outclassed the following three years, and that too without a lap-dog contract.

LOL. Mika was nowhere near as good as MS. Unless you want to claim McLaren and Ferrari were equal in 1998?

Yeah, the 1998 Ferrari was an absolute piece of horse poo. But Magic Schumacher almost won the championship in it. Meanwhile, another all-time great, Eddie Irvine, troubled the explosive DC for 3rd place in the driver's table with the same horse poo 1998 Ferrari. How lucky Ferrari really were to have such amazing two drivers!

Ferrari was the only team to bring upgrades and new developments to their car throughout the season?

No, but they brought the most significant upgrades right towards the end when it mattered the most, just when Mclaren were catching up. Besides, you forgot to comment on the fact that Bridgestone also started bringing tyre compounds to races in 2000, which suited Ferrari, which pissed off many teams, and hence the majority jumped when Michelin entered the sport.

1) The accident with Hill was 100% the fault of Damon. There was no room for him, there never was going to be any room for him, yet he stupidly tried to bully his way through.

Exhibit A: The most biased a fan can ever be. What was Damon supposed to do behind the limping Benetton? Stay in the tow and ruin his own race? Damon's front left was right alongside Schumacher's sidepod, and he still turned into him. What, his mirrors suddenly stopped working or his brain stopped processing because of the shunt before?

Yeah, Maldonado the superstar.

Maldonado the GP2 champion, same as Nico Rosberg, the GP2 champion. The difference is one is making a once lap-dog look rather impressive, and the other is making the "greatest" look rather ordinary. The difference in Rubens and Michael's age is only 3 years, but I guess Michael is already too old for Formula 1. LMAO.

MS does not use the simulator for the same reason Kimi doesnt - they get sick in it.

Link from a proper and credible source?

Do you think MS is as good now as he was in 2001?

Can't be too bad. He did very well compared to Vettel at ROC last year, didn't he, going against regular drivers. Oh, but when it comes to F1, he is too old. Do you think Mercedes would still be risking it with a senile has-been just for sponsorship money? I'm pretty sure he passed all the prerequisites and only then made the comeback and thought he could do well. Stop with the excuses. This is the first time he's been on equal footing with a teammate since his Ferrari days, and is being shown the way.

LOL. Like who? Name one.

Kimi Raikkonen. Oh, I don't know, Pastor Maldonado. 2010 GP2 champion. Daniel Ricciardo, Paul Di Resta, Kamui Kobayashi. All would make much better use of that seat than MS, and make more sense for the future for Mercedes.

The only thing you have right here is that Michael or no other driver designs the car. Driver has very little to do with the quality of his car, that is up to the engineers.

Yet we have some Schumacher fans (not you) claiming not so long ago that he has a mechanical engineer degree and that he sets up and tweaks the car himself. OMG.

Name examples of those super starts he had in 1994 and 1995 where he overtook many cars at the start? Examples!
The only brilliant start he had was at France in 1994 where he went from 3rd to 1st, but other than that he had plenty of bad starts.

I'm not gonna go Google every start from those years. I have something called "work" to do, you know? IIRC he had some weirdly good starts and amazing traction out of corners, which Senna noticed when following him, and it made his doubts even clearer when he saw his starts. Of course, I do not recall every single race start from 15 years ago, but that doesn't change the fact that that jump from 3rd to 1st wasn't a bit too much.

Were Ferrari punished for it? No.
Was it illegal? No

Were Ferrari investigated for it? Yes.
Did they have to change the bargeboards? Yes.

The one who did the punting was stupid Damon who tried to overtake in a place where it was impossible.

Yeah, Schumacher's helmet was filled with red mist, his mirrors stopped working, and he had skidmarks in his underpants from the previous corner. Oh mein Gott!

Again you keep going on about TC and Benetton having it. Reality is not your friend though. TC was never found on the Benetton, never was there any proof they used it. Do you have proof that they used it? If you dont, then admit you were speaking BS.

F1 News - Grandprix.com > GP Encyclopedia > People > Tad Czapski

BBC - 606 - - A84553077 - Schumacher's Benetton B194 Had LTC Software

1994 Formula One cheating controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Motor Racing: The tarnishing of Benetton: Grand prix's leading team show a united front, but more trauma awaits on the road from the podium to the pits - Richard Williams explains the fall from grace of Formula One's audacious high-flyers - Sport - T

Of course none of these prove a 100% that Benetton were cheating, but the facts are there for everyone to see. They found the hidden option 13 to activate launch control. Why didn't Benetton hand over their access codes to the FIA when Ferrari did? Even Ross Brawn admitted in later interviews of the car having the mysterious option 13. Not only this, Benetton were again to the stewards for an illegal fuel hose and later, ride height.

Do you even know for what?

Illegally overtaking Damon on the parade lap and then ignoring the black flag, and weirdly worn out plank underneath his car suggesting illegal ground effect producing more downforce, was it?

Guess because they knew the disqualification was pure crap and the wrong decision to make.

Yes, because all disqualifications and cheating allegations are born out of thin air and have no technical data supporting them, and FIA are just a bunch of muppets. My barber can do a better job. Why did Ferrari change their bargeboards then?

So Michelin was cheating for over 2 years? That is just disgusting.

Yeah, Bridgestone and Ferrari knew every technical detail for two years, but didn't bother with it until the Michelin teams became competitive and started beating them. Why wasn't this brought to the FIA's attention sooner? Or were they sleeping?

He has been slower in races, faster in qualifying.

Only this year. Last year he was thoroughly bludgeoning the "greatest ever" (LMAO) in qualifying and races. Only recently his race pace is suffering, but he's still owning Schumacher in qualifying, 12-2, and is still ahead in the points table. Who would have thought, a GP2 champion, nobody in F1, easily beating Schumacher. This is the greatest hero stories of our time. They should write a book about it. Oh wait, or maybe Schumacher wasn't this great all along?

F1 is not "other sports".
Sure you can be great at darts even at 60, but F1 is a different kind of sport.

Nobody said anything about darts. Ever heard of UFC, or just MMA in general? Up until a few months ago, Randy Couture, at the age of 48, was mixing it up with guys 20 years his junior. Agreed that he sucked, but he wasn't that great ever anyway, has 10 losses in his career, but he did beat much younger guys. There are other fighters around the same age level that are still doing well in other organizations. At the highest level of MMA, fighters have to train their necks the same was as F1 pilots do, to withstand impact from punches, kicks and knees. The rest of their body is undoubtedly stronger than an F1 driver's. Schumacher's age is just becoming a lousy excuse by his fans who can't seem to digest the fact that 5 of his 7 championships were won in the best car in the field. He was in the right car at the right time, that's it.