[viawbambutt]

Exactly, that's why drivers starting their careers in these Eurobruns and Lifes should not be judged based on results only.

Right, we should wait until they get a drive in the best cars even though they were crap in the lesser teams!
You've somehow managed to beat henners' pearl!

[yahyynzer]

Right, we should wait until they get a drive in the best cars even though they were crap in the lesser teams!

You're making no sense. Gary Brabham had to deal with a team (Life) that built a car as slow as the F3000 machinery. They didn't have any spares either. How on earth was he ever going to display his real potential? Another example is Tommy Byrne with the Theodore team in 1982. He actually tested a McLaren and was faster than Senna. Eddie Jordan had a knack of spotting talented drivers in lower formulae and, even if they didn't do marvellous things with his team, a lot have went on to become F1 race winners (Irvine, Barrichello, Ralf, Fisi etc)

[boiffrona]

They were both in the same team!
You made my day with your pearl of infinite wisdom!

What, teams don't run their cars with differing set-ups to mitigate risk of weather/condition changes?

[reaciciomarep]

They were both in the same team!
You made my day with your pearl of infinite wisdom!

I probably should have explained deeper than one line, and explain that it was in relation to wet conditions in general. I wrote that whilst thinking about Monza 2008 when both Vettel and Bourdais looked like wet weather masters when their team gambled on a wet weather setup but the other teams stuck to dry. That was the only time in 2008 when the two best teams Ferrari and McLaren looked average and a midfield team blew everyone away. Saying that Lewis had an amazing race too, but no win. I can appreciate you'd find my comment funny, but thought I'd better put it into context. Apologies for making you laugh unnecessarily it seems.

[MortgFinsJohnQ]

You're making no sense. Gary Brabham had to deal with a team (Life) that built a car as slow as the F3000 machinery. They didn't have any spares either. How on earth was he ever going to display his real potential? Another example is Tommy Byrne with the Theodore team in 1982. He actually tested a McLaren and was faster than Senna. Eddie Jordan had a knack of spotting talented drivers in lower formulae and, even if they didn't do marvellous things with his team, a lot have went on to become F1 race winners (Irvine, Barrichello, Ralf, Fisi etc)

Indeed.

Of the current top drivers Massa and Button both failed to impress relative to their teammates on paper early on. In both cases teams saw potential and hired them over their more illustrious teammates. There is far more to assessing new talent than simply looking at scoresheets.

[Texdolley]

You're making no sense. Gary Brabham had to deal with a team (Life) that built a car as slow as the F3000 machinery. They didn't have any spares either. How on earth was he ever going to display his real potential? Another example is Tommy Byrne with the Theodore team in 1982. He actually tested a McLaren and was faster than Senna. Eddie Jordan had a knack of spotting talented drivers in lower formulae and, even if they didn't do marvellous things with his team, a lot have went on to become F1 race winners (Irvine, Barrichello, Ralf, Fisi etc)

EJ Brought Schuey into the sport too!

[leangarance]

EJ Brought Schuey into the sport too!

Probably the credit for that goes more to Peter Sauber, who was running MS in sports cars at the time with Mercedes. EJ was more than willing to accept the £150,000 (I think it was) that Mercedes paid for the Jordan seat, particularly as MS said he had been to Spa before. EJ took that to mean he had raced at Spa, which he hadn't.

Then Ross Brawn & Tom Walkinshaw, who had been running the Jaguar sports cars against Sauber/Mercedes and seen for themselves how good MS was and who then went to Benetton, were very keen to sign him up, which they did after the Belgian GP in circumstances that EJ was none too happy about.

[Texdolley]

Probably the credit for that goes more to Peter Sauber, who was running MS in sports cars at the time with Mercedes. EJ was more than willing to accept the £150,000 (I think it was) that Mercedes paid for the Jordan seat, particularly as MS said he had been to Spa before. EJ took that to mean he had raced at Spa, which he hadn't.

Then Ross Brawn & Tom Walkinshaw, who had been running the Jaguar sports cars against Sauber/Mercedes and seen for themselves how good MS was and who then went to Benetton, were very keen to sign him up, which they did after the Belgian GP in circumstances that EJ was none too happy about.

I realise you can't give EJ full credit for MS Jordan debut. Nonetheless, it was a Jordan he drove first. It was EJ's own fault for not having a contract in place that he lost MS in the first place.

[reaciciomarep]

I realise you can't give EJ full credit for MS Jordan debut. Nonetheless, it was a Jordan he drove first. It was EJ's own fault for not having a contract in place that he lost MS in the first place.

EJ was naive in the whole process from what I have read in several books on MS's life. EJ had a verbal agreement with Willi Weber that after Spa MS would sign for the rest of '91 and for 1992 off the back of his qualifying performance of that race. The men shook hands but no contract was signed and Weber had well and truly shafted EJ because they were already in talks with Benetton who were not able at that point to test MS out in one of their seats. EJ was stupid to think a gentlemans word is his bond in a deal like that and especially with a ruthless chap like Weber.

[6Rexw51X]

Right, we should wait until they get a drive in the best cars even though they were crap in the lesser teams!
You've somehow managed to beat henners' pearl!

I'm talking about teams that really shouldn't be on the grid. Hispania was in that state last year.

[MortgFinsJohnQ]

EJ was stupid to think a gentlemans word is his bond in a deal like that and especially with a ruthless chap like Weber.

Yet EJ's entire case against Vodaphone rested entirely on him having had a verbal agreement that they would sponsor his team and not Ferrari, and that was years after MS. Clearly he didn't learn a thing!

[boiffrona]

Yet EJ's entire case against Vodaphone rested entirely on him having had a verbal agreement that they would sponsor his team and not Ferrari, and that was years after MS. Clearly he didn't learn a thing!

Once upon a time, in a land far far away, a mans word was his bond.......

However, in the dog eat dog, cutthroat incestuous macro community that is F1, even a written contract isn't worth the paper it is written on......

[Aminkaoo]

Renault secures four new partners - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com

Lotus Renault signed 4 new sponsors (where do they find the space on the car?!), at least 2 of which are Brazillian....

[yahyynzer]

Once upon a time, in a land far far away, a mans word was his bond.......

However, in the dog eat dog, cutthroat incestuous macro community that is F1, even a written contract isn't worth the paper it is written on......

And that's it really. Also, I can vouch for this: Irish people would be used to agreeing things on a handshake, especially up until the economy boom in the 90s which saw it advance as a country in the developed world. As a community of people, we haven't really learned the craft of the business world to the standard of super powerful and efficient countries like Germany, Sweden and Japan. Nowadays, it is a bit different as we develop further as a country (still less than 100 years old as a republic) but the naive mentality and basis of a "man of his word" certainly prevailed for a long time. EJ probably thought it would be the same everywhere. I, for one, have my eyes opened every time I meet some foreign people or travel abroad at how efficient their work ethic is. Irish people just aren't brought up the same way, generally.

I'm not making excuses for EJ. He certainly should have been more careful and clever with regard to the Schumacher situation. But I do feel bad for him losing out in the way he did - unfortunate. Anyway, I'm getting lost in my own words at this stage - just wanted to say that

[6Rexw51X]

Renault secures four new partners - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com

Lotus Renault signed 4 new sponsors (where do they find the space on the car?!), at least 2 of which are Brazillian....

I don't think it is news to anyone that Senna brings backing to the team. So what? He outqualified Petrov straight away and has quite a good pedigree in the lower formula. Pretty good package for a team that needs money and new motivation. Heidfeld is a known quantity who did not bring anything extra to the team whereas Senna is bit of an unknown but may or may not have potential...The swap made perfect sense to me.

[WoCTrt0X]

EJ was naive in the whole process from what I have read in several books on MS's life. EJ had a verbal agreement with Willi Weber that after Spa MS would sign for the rest of '91 and for 1992 off the back of his qualifying performance of that race. The men shook hands but no contract was signed and Weber had well and truly shafted EJ because they were already in talks with Benetton who were not able at that point to test MS out in one of their seats. EJ was stupid to think a gentlemans word is his bond in a deal like that and especially with a ruthless chap like Weber.

This thread was about Nick.

[putza]

This thread was about Nick.

Actually i started it more about Senna than Nick, Nick is gone

[WoCTrt0X]

Actually i started it more about Senna than Nick, Nick is gone

OK, finally you cleared things up.

[reaciciomarep]

This thread was about Nick.

Well rather than pointing out that I was off topic (I wasn't the one who took it OT, btw) perhaps you'd like to give give an opinion on Heidfeld being dropped? If you can get a dig in about Lewis too, all the better.

[viawbambutt]

What, teams don't run their cars with differing set-ups to mitigate risk of weather/condition changes?

Teams run teh setups that drivers need to extract the best out of the car.

All this wet/dry race setup is just humbug, like in Alonso's case last year when he claimed he had the car set up for wet weather only for him to spin into the wall as soon as it started raining. :/

Then again each believes what is suited to his/her 'reality'. LOL