[joanbertis]

Apparently , Newey was petrified that , having chosen a degree of camber on the fronts that was more extreme than the recommended four degrees , the tires were in danger of delaminating .

Obviously , the recommendation was put in for safety reasons , and the FIA are in charge of this aspect of the racing .

It would seems rather obvious to me that a simple tire angle measuring device could be employed to make sure that the racing is safe on the tires supplied .


The situation begs the question of who would be responsible for a major failure , if the recommendations regarding camber are disregarded .
If this was , indeed , that scary for Newey , then I say that this should be stopped right away .
He went into the unknown here , and risked his driver's lives for a win . That's just not right .

And , it would be a horrible end to a stellar career to cause something unthinkable in this way .


Pirelli's response , obviously feeling extremely vulnerable that this isn't regulated to begin with , has been to say they will be even more cautious in the future , recommending even less camber , so as to try to rein in the greedy teams .

This , of course , won't work , as the teams now know this will be the plan , so they'll likely just regard it as such , and go even more extreme .

From Newey's attitude about flaunting the recommendations , it suggests that Pirelli may already be down-grading the angle suggestion already .
They are supplied with all the data from the teams regarding the tires , so they can design them to the spec , so they know what Newey is doing .

When asked , Hembrey wouldn't reveal the angle Newey was setting them at , but it sure sounded like he wanted to .
Here , perhaps , is one of the keys to the speed of that Bull .
It may also be handicapping the others as well , if Pirelli is purposefully down-grading the camber angle because of the Bulls , and the rest are following orders .



Much as I hate the introduction of new rules during the season , I advocate getting some regulation in pronto here , so we don't have a disaster .

Pirelli should be allowed to recommend a maximum camber setting , and expect that the FIA will regulate it .

[gugqgbyzlp]

It may also be handicapping the others as well , if Pirelli is purposefully down-grading the camber angle because of the Bulls , and the rest are following orders .

How do we know if other teams are withing Pirellis campber spec?

I'm not sure it's such a big safety concern as delaminating tyre would most likely will affect lap times before exploding, forcing a pit stop.

[joanbertis]

How do we know if other teams are withing Pirellis campber spec?

I'm not sure it's such a big safety concern as delaminating tyre would most likely will affect lap times before exploding, forcing a pit stop.

We don't , exactly , but we do know this , from Paul Hembery of Pirelli :
"So were left in a situation where one team in particular was stretching the limits of our recommendations and we felt that that in a race situation would create difficulties, and blistering."

If it was not a big safety issue , would Newey have said this ? :
“Frankly, at the end of the race, I was just very relieved that both our drivers were safe.”

[Qnpqbpac]

We don't , exactly , but we do know this , from Paul Hembery of Pirelli :
"So were left in a situation where one team in particular was stretching the limits of our recommendations and we felt that that in a race situation would create difficulties, and blistering."

If it was not a big safety issue , would Newey have said this ? :
“Frankly, at the end of the race, I was just very relieved that both our drivers were safe.”

Yeah, it was a self-created pickle RBR found themselves in on Sunday. I agree that a regulation change is needed here and I'm sure Newey would agree. He said a few races before the blown diffuser ban at Silverstone that he is in favour of a regulation change mid season on the grounds of safety. Well, if there was ever a need for a regulation change now, then this is it. Pirelli recommend the maximum camber angle at every GP and the teams can go under but not above it. It shoulds like RBR have been stretching the limits. They pushed it too far and both or either of their drivers could have paid the price this weekend.

[joanbertis]

You can tell that Hembrey's pi$$ed with Newey over this :
"...it depends how stupid you want to be. Ordinarily there should not be any concern; it is something that should be self regulating. Some of the images I saw today on two cars made me think that maybe they were not looking at the same images as me – or they did not have a high definition television. I don't know...".

And this doesn't sound happy either :
"Everything can be a safety issue if you continue beyond natural limits of using it, but you have to believe that the level of professionalism of people within the sport is such that they are not going to go that far."

And this is the "pickle" :
"In the end, what do you do? Do you make a change and end up creating a precedent? Do you make a change that would be seen to assisting one team and all the other teams, particularly with the result we had at the end? If we had, I think today you would not be asking me about this, you would be asking me why we helped Red Bull win the race? So it was a very difficult situation to be in."

Yeah , he's pi$$ed .

[gugqgbyzlp]

If it was not a big safety issue , would Newey have said this ? :
“Frankly, at the end of the race, I was just very relieved that both our drivers were safe.”

It seems Redbull thought the safety concern wasn't big enough to warrant a smaller camber angle.

[Fsfkkkjz]

I dont think it was a massive safety concern. Just that the tyres may lose grip faster.

[Biassasecumma]

How do we know if other teams are withing Pirellis campber spec?

I'm not sure it's such a big safety concern as delaminating tyre would most likely will affect lap times before exploding, forcing a pit stop.

Indeed, it looks like McLaren were also running a higher angle then the one Pirelli were recommending.

McLaren didn't change set-up for tyres at Spa - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com

[Biassasecumma]

You can tell that Hembrey's pi$$ed with Newey over this :
"...it depends how stupid you want to be. Ordinarily there should not be any concern; it is something that should be self regulating. Some of the images I saw today on two cars made me think that maybe they were not looking at the same images as me – or they did not have a high definition television. I don't know...".

And this doesn't sound happy either :
"Everything can be a safety issue if you continue beyond natural limits of using it, but you have to believe that the level of professionalism of people within the sport is such that they are not going to go that far."

And this is the "pickle" :
"In the end, what do you do? Do you make a change and end up creating a precedent? Do you make a change that would be seen to assisting one team and all the other teams, particularly with the result we had at the end? If we had, I think today you would not be asking me about this, you would be asking me why we helped Red Bull win the race? So it was a very difficult situation to be in."

Yeah , he's pi$$ed .

IMO Hembery is far from the level of F1 expertise that Newey and other F1 engineers have.
Call me the day they finally make a tire that can hold a candle to Bridgestone's tires and then I might listen to what Hembery blabbers.

[BinasiDombrs]

A tyre manufacturer's guidelines should remain just that and teams should remain pushing the limits - but just don't go throwing toys out of the pram when you were advised not to go beyond a certain tolerance.

Colin Chapman would be spinning in his grave.

[BinasiDombrs]

I dont think it was a massive safety concern. Just that the tyres may lose grip faster.

It is a massive safety concern. A very badly blistered tyre can compromise the structure of the tyre and delaminate.

[Biassasecumma]

There were comments during the week end about Pirelli and the FIA trying to force RBR to start the race on the prime tires from the pit lane.
I wonder why would that would have been good for everyone, but RBR.

Anyway RBR refused and it seems they judged teh tires better then Pirelli who actually builds them. No surprise really.

Seb gave Pirelli his own opinion about the situation before the start:

sebastian vettel mario isola pirelli spa belgium - YouTube

[joanbertis]

That's not the way I read the situation .

As I understand it , Pirelli expressed concern , Red Bull confirmed the camber angle , and were given the options of running as they were , or starting from pit lane , allowing for a tire change , and camber and/or pressure changes to stop the blistering .

They opted for staying put , rather than dealing with the safety concern in the pit lane .

And , judging by Newey's comments , they ran closer to disaster than he's ever done before .
It sounds like he feels more like he's been lucky here , rather than a good judge .

Who is held responsible if that disaster was to occur ?

[AgowlSown]

Who is held responsible if that disaster was to occur ?

I would imagine Newey or the person in Red Bull who had the final say would be held accountable in that circumstance. If Pirelli issue advice and a recommendation, then they have covered themselves legally. Much like if you or I ran past a wet floor sign and injured ourselves after ignoring clear warnings and advice.

[dietpillxanaxaxx]

...were given the options of running as they were , or starting from pit lane , allowing for a tire change , and camber and/or pressure changes to stop the blistering ...

Can camber angle be changed after parc fermé?
How is this done? Is it relatively simple on an F1 car?

[Biassasecumma]

Can camber angle be changed after parc fermé?
How is this done? Is it relatively simple on an F1 car?

The question is if the camber angle was recommended before the race week end started.
The only driver in a top team who seemed not to have heavy blistering on his front left tire was Massa, the other ones were all having this problem.

In the end this is F1 and the tire supplier should provide F1 level tires that can cope with what the teams throw at them.
Michelin left F1 over a similar problem, Pirelli prefer to point the finger to the others instead of getting their fingers out of their rears and working hard.

PS: It is not simple to do especially as they will know bugger all about how the car will react to such setup change.

[ProomoSam]

The question is if the camber angle was recommended before the race week end started.
The only driver in a top team who seemed not to have heavy blistering on his front left tire was Massa, the other ones were all having this problem.

In the end this is F1 and the tire supplier should provide F1 level tires that can cope with what the teams throw at them.
Michelin left F1 over a similar problem, Pirelli prefer to point the finger to the others instead of getting their fingers out of their rears and working hard.

PS: It is not simple to do especially as they will know bugger all about how the car will react to such setup change.

Whilst I would love to throw crap Pirelli's way, if Red Bull were running to much camber and the others were burning their tyres trying to keep up then that's not Pirelli's fault strictly speaking.

[Maypeevophy]

I've never visually noted any unusual camber in F1, but Vettel's right-front was almost comical-looking. Very strange.

[BinasiDombrs]

The question is if the camber angle was recommended before the race week end started.
The only driver in a top team who seemed not to have heavy blistering on his front left tire was Massa, the other ones were all having this problem.

In the end this is F1 and the tire supplier should provide F1 level tires that can cope with what the teams throw at them.
Michelin left F1 over a similar problem, Pirelli prefer to point the finger to the others instead of getting their fingers out of their rears and working hard.

PS: It is not simple to do especially as they will know bugger all about how the car will react to such setup change.

This problem runs across motorsport and not necessarily the fault of the tyre manufacturer.

For instance in NASCAR, teams may go beyond Goodyear's advice and wear the right-front tyres down to the cord.

When BTCC race at Thruxton some drivers go beyond Dunlop's advice on camber angles and tyre puncture are not uncommon.

[stutnerman]

In answer to the original question, if a team sets up a car not within the recommendations given by the tire company, any consequence of a dangerous situation resulting from that is on the team IMO. F1 is about pushing limits as well all know. But when a team is pushing limits beyond a given spec and then pointing fingers at a supplier for a safety issue it's simply wrong.

As usual the FIA give lip service about safety issues, and didn't really get properly involved. Personally I think if Red Bull voiced safety concerns they should have measured the camber angles on the cars, and then forced Red Bull to correct the situation and start from pit lane. My guess is that the true intention of Red Bull was simply to start the race on fresh tires without penalty, due to screwing up their setup and eating up tires.