[daguy]

Bye Bye F1.....well miss you



Standard engine set for go-ahead

By Jonathan Noble Tuesday, December 9th 2008, 12:38 GMT

Radical plans for a standard engine in Formula One look almost certain to be rubber-stamped by the FIA later this week, autosport.com has learned, with five teams including Renault believed to have expressed an interest in signing up to the deal.

FIA president Max Mosley has given teams until Thursday afternoon to sign up to the option of having a standard-specification Cosworth engine from 2010.

In a letter to the teams last week, he said the deal would go ahead as long as a minimum of four outfits were interested in a three-year deal - which will cost them an upfront fee of £1.68 million and an annual charge of £5.49 million.

Although there has been no official confirmation from the FIA about the level of interest in the deal, with Mosley simply claiming last Friday that he had been contacted by three teams, investigations by autosport.com have revealed that half the grid are now seriously looking into it.

Autosport.com understands that as well as wholly independent teams Williams and Force India having shown an interest, Red Bull Racing and Scuderia Toro Rosso have told the FIA that they are taking the option into consideration.

But the biggest surprise is that French car manufacturer Renault is believed to have told the FIA that it too is interested in the supply of standard engines.

Such a move would mark a significant departure for the car maker, who have supplied engines from their Viry-Chatillon base in France since they returned to F1 in 2001.

However, with Renault having long faced financial pressures from their parent company to justify their involvement in F1, the prospect of a dramatic reduction in engine budget from 2010 may be enough to quell any unease that could lead to the French car manufacturer following Honda out of the sport.

Renault boss Flavio Briatore was unavailable for comment about Renault's interest in standard engines, but did say at the season-closing Brazilian Grand Prix that power units were one area where big cost savings could be made.

"I think we are in a very difficult position economically, what is going on around the globe and it's a panic at the moment," he said. "Formula One is not immune from this panic. I believe our chairman and everybody is very sensitive as to what happens in Formula One as well.

"Regarding the question of the engines, sure we need to cut the costs but for me, all this discussion about Formula One engines, already today, with frozen engines, theoretically there is no development. I don't understand all the time how it's surprising when people are talking about engine development etc.

"Already today we have no performance (gains) from the engine. If everybody follows the rules, the engine is frozen and nobody is allowed to touch the engine. Whatever proposal we put together, we need to take into consideration this as well."

The FIA has made it clear that it will not force manufacturers to run a standard engine from 2010, but Mosley said in last week's letter than any car maker's own power unit will have its performance pegged to that of the standard engine.

With no performance differentiation between the different types of engines, Briatore may have felt that there was little point in Renault continuing to fund a full-scale engine programme for tens of millions of pounds, when there is a fully-competitive option for less than £6 million.

Mosley is due to meet with FOTA representatives in Monaco on Wednesday to discuss the latest raft of cost-cutting ideas for implementation next year and 2010.

He has already hinted that measures being proposed by the teams do not go far enough and, with an added urgency to bring budgets down in the wake of Honda's withdrawal, there could be some fraught discussions about what needs to be done.

After Thursday's deadline for standard engines, the FIA World Motor Sport Council will meet on Friday, with Formula One cost cuts believed to be the main item on the agenda.

It is expected that the meeting will rubber stamp any rules proposals coming out of the FOTA meeting, as well as the standard engine plans.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72413

[Caliwany]

But there was also talk of manufacturers being able to build their own engine to the same specifications as long as it does not output any more power/torque etc than the standard units.

[daguy]

But there was also talk of manufacturers being able to build their own engine to the same specifications as long as it does not output any more power/torque etc than the standard units.

I guess for manufacturers such as Renault the advantage of running a Cossie versus making their own engine to the exact same standard spec is not having to incur the added overheads of their own inhouse engine operation.

But still, a Renault-Cosworth??

[Immampdah]

Nothing unexpected, all those who can't design and build a competitive engine are happy to go with this plan.

What about Ferrari, Toyota, BMW and Mercedes?
If the 4 of them aren't allowed to continue producing and using their own engines than it's bye bye F1.

[Si8jy8HN]

But still, a Renault-Cosworth??

Perhaps they'll call it a Toleman again

Nothing unexpected, all those who can't design and build a competitive engine are happy to go with this plan.

The Renault was a race winning engine in 2008.

[hitaEtela]

The Renault was a race winning engine in 2008.

I've been thinking about that.

Renault were nowhere until the kerfuffle about engines and then suddenly had a race winning car.

Max knew he had this in the pipeline and wanted Flav onboard as a manufacturer.

Not the first time Flav and "der establishment" have come to a similar agreement

Naw, it's just too obvious

[Immampdah]

The Renault was a race winning engine in 2008.

No way Jose, it was a race winning package, not engine. The engine is some 20-30 HP down on the Ferrari and Mercedes and probably the BMW engines too.

Don't mix apples and oranges!

[hitaEtela]

No way Jose, it was a race winning package, not engine. The engine is some 20-30 HP down on the Ferrari and Mercedes and probably the BMW engines too.

Don't mix apples and oranges!

Be interesting to have a HP printout of the engine from the start and finish of the season

[Si8jy8HN]

No way Jose, it was a race winning package, not engine.

Oh, alright then...Renault had a race winning package

I'm still not sure how Renault, the car manufacturer, will "sell" the idea of competing in F1 with an engine not of their own making although I can understand the likes of Force India, STR, Red Bull, and Williams seeing it as an option.

One other issue is that this is all going on before FOTA have met with the FIA to discuss their own proposals.

[GoblinGaga]

I think that this is a shame, but really Max has been backed into a corner and there needs to be drastic cuts in costs if more teams aren't to pull out imminently. This would work in cutting costs so long as the rival engines don't have a performance advantage. The current ban on developing engines isn't working as the engines are really expensive to make even when they're not being developed, but there are loopholes that have been exploited so that the engines were developed anyway.

If this is done properly then I think in the long term it will be very positive for F1, despite the complaints of Ferrari and Toyota.

[bribiaLaubysdggf]

I can see this lasting a few years, then when the financial situation improves it'll slowly be relaxed again.. There's proof that engine improvements are the most costly aspect of R&D so cutting this out will free up money elsewhere.

All it means is that the teams will find some other way to gain an advantage, in areas that are cheaper to develop, although I'm not entirely sure what those areas will be. The new aero packages will be revised over and over again, and the best teams will still be at the front.

[blodwarttufla]

But .... if we take a look at 70's we will see that there were periods when only two manufacturers of engines had participated - Ferrari and ...Cosworth

[Heacechig]

The current plan for implementing a standard engine doesn't seem as bad as during the first impression, especially as it has turned out that the manufacturers are allowed to continue with their own engines. If also a cheap alternative engine option is given, then what can be wrong with this? Also if a car maker is interested in the idea, then the idea can't be too bad.

Anyway, the combination of Renault-Cosworth still sounds quite odd. Renault's car sales aren't arguably doing too well and maybe at Renault HQ's they have reached to some kind of a conclusion that if their F1 team has any future in the series, then they must use all the possible means to cut down the costs - and are even ready to swallow the pride of their own engines in achieving this goal. Their thought might be pretty much "cheap Cosworth engines or we are out of F1".

[Si8jy8HN]

I think that this is a shame, but really Max has been backed into a corner and there needs to be drastic cuts in costs if more teams aren't to pull out imminently.

I don't see this as the FIA as being backed into a corner at all. Their responsibility is to police the sport in terms of the regulations, not tell teams, or more particularly manufacturers, what they can and cannot spend on F1. The many changes in regulations have, as has already been pointed out, increased costs, not reduced them and manufacturers have always come and gone from F1 regardless of what the governing body do.

The FIA is acting like the proverbial bull in a china shop at the moment, and it is likely that the current President won't be around to clear up the mess, but at best he's being seen to do something which may earn him brownie points in the short term.

[Ekzamenov]

if it cuts there costs and keeps them in F1, I can see others doing this, afterall the Cosworth will be unbranded, so teams can call it whatever they like.

[vioppyskype]

any body think this could have been the plan with the engin freeze will it remain in place for the teams that do not wish to use or build the same spec engin.

[Duaceanceksm]

Next step: "Unbranded" chassis.

Goodbye F1, hello IRL.

No thanks.

[quorceopporce]

The FIA is acting like the proverbial bull in a china shop at the moment, and it is likely that the current President won't be around to clear up the mess, but at best he's being seen to do something which may earn him brownie points in the short term.

While the FIA's actions in terms of rule changes in recent years have hardly been praiseworthy, the required action now has to happen in the short term, surely?

[Immampdah]

I'm still not sure how Renault, the car manufacturer, will "sell" the idea of competing in F1 with an engine not of their own making although I can understand the likes of Force India, STR, Red Bull, and Williams seeing it as an option.

Easy, like they did it until now: "Renault = Champions du monde pilotes/constructeurs de la F1"

Where do they specify the engine? Nowhere!
What does the average Jean-Pierre know about what engine is in the back of that Renault F1 car? Nothing. And does he care? No!

[quorceopporce]

Easy, like they did it until now: "Renault = Champions du monde pilotes/constructeurs de la F1"

Where do they specify the engine? Nowhere!
What does the average Jean-Pierre know about what engine is in the back of that Renault F1 car? Nothing. And does he care? No!

I agree. After all, while Ford may have famously made nothing of the fact that its engines powered Michael Schumacher to world championship glory in 1994, I don't think that will have done them much harm!

In all the hoo-hah about this, we shouldn't forget that it will still be perfectly possible for other companies to build F1 engines and supply them to more than one team. I hope we see a bit of competition in this respect, albeit regulated by restrictions on costs, for otherwise we will see them spiralling again. If Cosworth can produce a good engine for a good price, surely others can?

One note of caution, though. Using spec engines brings with it a whole range of possibilities for controversy if those engines aren't up to scratch in some way. If enough teams use the same engine and there's a common fault, the impact could be severe — Indianapolis 2005 all over again, maybe?