[Evdokia]

With Super Aguri throwing the towel, when will we see another entry into F1?
It took 4 years to get another entry int F! since Arrows folded during mid-season in 2002.

[BoBoMasterDesign]

With Super Aguri throwing the towel, when will we see another entry into F1?
It took 4 years to get another entry int F! since Arrows folded during mid-season in 2002.

When the constructors agree to special conditions which would allow customer cars. Could be next year, or year after. Who knows. Maybe the imminent demise of Torro Rosso will be the final wake-up call they need.

[Idorsearogele]

With Super Aguri throwing the towel, when will we see another entry into F1?
It took 4 years to get another entry int F! since Arrows folded during mid-season in 2002.

At this point I'd be really happy if we can keep 20 cars in the field!
If we can stay at that number I'm good!
I think Bernie will do everything he can to cut the losses here!
But, Money talks, and..........
you know the rest

[Evdokia]

At this point I'd be really happy if we can keep 20 cars in the field!
If we can stay at that number I'm good!
I think Bernie will do everything he can to cut the losses here!
But, Money talks, and..........
you know the rest

Right: the $100 million. could be more by 2010.

[Pharmaciest]

Brawn: Customer cars good for F1
http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=42636
Honda Racing boss Ross Brawn believes the teams that objected to customer cars were prioritising their own needs over what was good for the sport.

[Idorsearogele]

T'Bolt, Ross is stating the obvious!
I'm old school, and am skeptical when a sport
breaks from fundamental traditions.
But desperate times require desperate measures!
I believe it time to emancipate F1
I can't believe I just said that.

[searkibia]

Customer cars were there since the start of F1, it was tradition.
I wonder how would have Williams and Spyker reacted if they were required to build their own engines?!

[Idorsearogele]

Customer cars were there since the start of F1, it was tradition.
I wonder how would have Williams and Spyker reacted if they were required to build their own engines?!

When something starts you can't have a built in tradition!
Ioan It's great to see you back my man !
Tell me because I'm a little vague on this.
When was the last time an F1 body maufacturer allowed to
distribute their finished product within the rules to other current teams?

[Sheefeadalfuh]

With Super Aguri throwing the towel, when will we see another entry into F1?
It took 4 years to get another entry int F! since Arrows folded during mid-season in 2002.

I cant see something worse than retirement while the show is running.
The towel is wet already, it doesn't feel nice to use it. If not with Honda Super Aguri will go somewhere else not far, keep observing possibility for the resource while they can go to Toyota to provide car for the third team.

[gechaheritt]

Who? Probably some Arab oil squillionaire setting up a team probably purely for indulgent purposes.

When? I'd bet on around 2010 + a few years to set the team up.

When people over there are building entire islands and cities to host an F1 race, an Arab F1 team can only be the next step.

[BoBoMasterDesign]

Customer cars were there since the start of F1, it was tradition.
I wonder how would have Williams and Spyker reacted if they were required to build their own engines?!

Welcome back, Spectre!! Nice to see someone on the job here!!

I was just thinking earlier today that Maserati made customer cars, then there was Lotus, Cooper, all very successful customers, by the way.
Then even Mad Max made customer cars. I don't recall Ferrari ever making customer cars for F1 although they did enter Le Mans at one stage through a North America Racing Team.

I am sure others here will be able to name customer cars like Lola, and so on.

[Super-Luser]

Then even Mad Max made customer cars.

Yes, under the March name. Both for F1 and Indycars.


I don't recall Ferrari ever making customer cars for F1 although they did enter Le Mans at one stage through a North America Racing Team. ATS, during the mid-60's, among others.
N.A.R.T. was created by Luigi Chinetti as the North American arm of Ferrari, for both private customers and racers. Many great drivers, including '61 WDC Phil Hill, Dan Gurney, Richie Ginther and others, came from N.A.R.T. driving Ferraris in SCCA and other road racing championships.


I am sure others here will be able to name customer cars like Lola, and so on. or better yet, just look here...
http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/constructorsa.html

[sposicke]

ATS, during the mid-60's, among others.

ATS were a breakaway organisation from Ferrari consisting of the designer, team manager and Phil Hill. Brand new car too (which was bloody terrible apparently).

[duawLauff]

I wonder how would have Williams and Spyker reacted if they were required to build their own engines?!

Very good point.

I must second the point that ATS had nothing directly to do with Ferrari, but of course there were non-works Ferraris at various times in the early years of the F1 world championship. There should have been one for Stirling Moss in 1962, of course, run by Rob Walker's team - still, surely, the benchmark for all 'privateer' efforts.

[bactrimtab]

While I would like to see customer cars in F1 I do sympathise with Williams's position on this issue. They have made a massive investment over many years to build up their business and compete in F1 (very successfully at times!), and yet if customer cars were allowed their whole business would be undermined.

Ultimately, what would be the point in any team building their own car. Isn't there the possibility that F1 could eventually move towards the Indycar model of having a chassis supplier to the series and bingo we have yet another spec series?

...Or worse still...Formula Ferrari (previously known as A1GP)

[Idorsearogele]

While I would like to see customer cars in F1 I do sympathise with Williams's position on this issue. They have made a massive investment over many years to build up their business and compete in F1 (very successfully at times!), and yet if customer cars were allowed their whole business would be undermined.

Ultimately, what would be the point in any team building their own car. Isn't there the possibility that F1 could eventually move towards the Indycar model of having a chassis supplier to the series and bingo we have yet another spec series?

...Or worse still...Formula Ferrari (previously known as A1GP)

Well put! If it goes down that road it will lose it's Identity!

[searkibia]

While I would like to see customer cars in F1 I do sympathise with Williams's position on this issue. They have made a massive investment over many years to build up their business and compete in F1 (very successfully at times!), and yet if customer cars were allowed their whole business would be undermined.

Ultimately, what would be the point in any team building their own car. Isn't there the possibility that F1 could eventually move towards the Indycar model of having a chassis supplier to the series and bingo we have yet another spec series?

...Or worse still...Formula Ferrari (previously known as A1GP)

Because, for example, you think that BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Toyota, Renault would buy a Ferrari chassis and race with it?!
These are manufacturers who would rather disappear than buy the chassis of another manufacturer and race with it!

The problem is, what will happen when the manufacturers will disappear and customer cars will not be allowed anymore, who would come in F1 just to spend money to make up the numbers and finish last? No one!

[bactrimtab]

Because, for example, you think that BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Toyota, Renault would buy a Ferrari chassis and race with it?!

Of course not.

If customer cars were to be allowed what limits would be put on the cars that could be bought? Would existing teams have to supply cars to those who want them, or would they have the choice not to supply cars at all?

Of course, those wanting to by a 'works' car would obviously want the most competitive option available, which brings us back to the Williams objection to customer cars!

[Super-Luser]

Because, for example, you think that BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Toyota, Renault would buy a Ferrari chassis and race with it?!
These are manufacturers who would rather disappear than buy the chassis of another manufacturer and race with it!

Especially McLaren & Williams, both of whom have nearly 40 years of experience in building chassis. The problem is that much of FIA & FOM seem to believe that others can duplicate similar results in a significantly smaller timeframe.
And, as we have seen from the latter end of the grid, this isn't happening anytime soon.

The problem is, what will happen when the manufacturers will disappear and customer cars will not be allowed anymore, who would come in F1 just to spend money to make up the numbers and finish last? No one! At present, it takes a budget around $200 Million just to be competitive, and up to $1/2 Billion to make the podium. The back three, including Super Aguri, were averaging under $100 Million.
TR & SA using older "hand-me-down" chassis from Honda and Red Bull lessened the cost, along with engine/powertrain deals.
Force India's chassis is just too 'basic' to be considered an opponent to most of the grid, and as the need for it to improve becomes apparent the costs there will be just as burdensome.

[Super-Luser]

Of course, those wanting to by a 'works' car would obviously want the most competitive option available, which brings us back to the Williams objection to customer cars!

and this is where 3rd party constructors comes into play.

It takes the burden of engineering and development off the hands of smaller teams and allows them the choice of matching engine with chassis to provide the best results.