[Siffidiolla]

I have been told before of groups of Haitians destroying everything in their path when they were demonstrating, specifically a orphange for their community in Juana Mendez. While not a popular concept in an increasingly secular world where there is no real right or wrong the fact is that vodoo is not a religion that promotes responsible behavior. After all, there are no consequences for ones actions and a real concept for getting ahead in life is casting a spell on your adversary. Therefore, it is really not a stretch to see how a people as poor as Haitians will do the expedient thing without fear of consequences if so provoked.

[jackie Obrian]

The question I asked, which never goes answered, was directly meant to be addressed to hillbilly and ANYONE else who chooses to stereotype Haitians as being inherently "stupid", backwards, inferior, etc.

Given some of the same chances in life ,Haitians achieve and are as productive as any other group.


I've NEVER had problems with DRs until being online really and I try to nip it in the bud early by having people face certain realities.

The DRs I've known and met in REAL LIFE are in some of the same circles that I'm in....so many are doing productive things and enjoying fulfilled lives. They tend not to be angry and have to look down on other ethnic groups to feel better about themselves. Those are the people I'm used to.

This Haitian hating element of DRs are new to me.

and to ANSWER your question, Fernando Mateo and a lot of other DRs are doing a good job of organizing their people into a political force. respect for that.

I don't believe there is any hate going on here, just a sense of frustration when faced with illogical actions.

[duceswild]

This I think is an interesting and telling story. I sailed to the DR a few years ago and dropped anchor in Manzanillo Bay. I was lying at anchor off the main and only pier for a few days, when one early one morning I saw another sail boat anchored close aboard. I was just coming topside, with my morning coffee, when I spotted her about 50 yards to seaward. There was a dingy in the water being rowed straight towards my craft, when it bumped alongside I helped the man aboard my vessel. He proceeded to break down and weep, and I could see he was in terrible shape, sunburnt and blistered. I got him some water and when he was a little restored he told what had befallen him. He was a day out of Caicos when his engine quit and the wind was dropping, and kept dropping to zero mph. He was becalmed for 5 days and not prepared for the long haul, thinking he would be in the DR in 1 day. He had little water and food, and about the 3rd or 4th day, while lying in the cockpit he heard voices. Being 60 miles off shore he believed he was getting delirious. Looking over the gunnels he sees a small craft close abeam, slowly sinking, and being bailed out by two Haitians. He brought them aboard and just as their boat sank. The wind finally came up and he beat to Manzanillo were he had just now anchored. ‘Where are the two Haitians’ I asked? ‘In my boat he replied’. I said he had better report to the Commandonte muy pronto, especially with two illegal Haitians. Well he went to the office at the pier and then went to his boat for the Haitians, returning with them to the Commander. The sailors had the Haitians turn out their pockets, in them was the man’s razor, aftershave, soap, some small kitchen items, a few US dollars and some other stuff I don’t recall. The commander asked if it was his items, and he lied to protect the men that just robbed him, after saving their a-s in the sea, and said he gave them the stuff. That really surprised me, as he was a South African and ex policeman, go figure.
What would you have done?

[Nmoitmzr]

I have been told before of groups of Haitians destroying everything in their path when they were demonstrating, specifically a orphange for their community in Juana Mendez. While not a popular concept in an increasingly secular world where there is no real right or wrong the fact is that vodoo is not a religion that promotes responsible behavior. After all, there are no consequences for ones actions and a real concept for getting ahead in life is casting a spell on your adversary. Therefore, it is really not a stretch to see how a people as poor as Haitians will do the expedient thing without fear of consequences if so provoked.

That is a load of baloney - on so many, many levels.

[Siffidiolla]

That is a load of baloney - on so many, many levels.

Apart what you have already posted on this forum which doesn't differ a great deal from what I posted why don't you educate us.

[xpllmr]

Apart what you have already posted on this forum which doesn't differ a great deal from what I posted why don't you educate us.

"Us" ?

No. Him

Mission = Impossible

[Nmoitmzr]

Baloney 1

You imply that the secular world does not know right from wrong.


Baloney 2

You imply Voodoo promotes irresponsible behaviour - that you do not have to responsible for your actions. Where did that come from - because it is BALONEY!


Baloney 3

You imply Voodoo induces mob like behaviour.
Ain't you ever heard of the crusades?


I could go on but I guess you are just trying to wind me up - and I have a virgin, stripped and washed to attend to before the alter gets all slippery.

[xpllmr]

Baloney 1

You imply that the secular world does not know right from wrong.


Baloney 2

You imply Voodoo promotes irresponsible behaviour - that you do not have to responsible for your actions. Where did that come from - because it is BALONEY!


Baloney 3

You imply Voodoo induces mob like behaviour.
Ain't you ever heard of the crusades?


I could go on but I guess you are just trying to wind me up - and I have a virgin, stripped and washed to attend to before the alter gets all slippery.

Daam.

This could stretch until the end of time as we know it.

[CGH1KZzy]

I have been told before of groups of Haitians destroying everything in their path when they were demonstrating, specifically a orphange for their community in Juana Mendez. While not a popular concept in an increasingly secular world where there is no real right or wrong the fact is that vodoo is not a religion that promotes responsible behavior. After all, there are no consequences for ones actions and a real concept for getting ahead in life is casting a spell on your adversary. Therefore, it is really not a stretch to see how a people as poor as Haitians will do the expedient thing without fear of consequences if so provoked.

Glad that the fear of hellfire and brimstone is keeping those good catholic priests in order... Spoken like a true follower of the wonderful folks who brought us the inquisition!

POVERTY brings desperation... We should all be grateful that none of us has had to suffer the sort of desperation that many Haitians are living in now...
with no shelter, and no food, and no way to make a living. ........

[CGH1KZzy]

Glad that the fear of hellfire and brimstone is keeping those good catholic priests in order... Spoken like a true follower of the wonderful folks who brought us the inquisition!

POVERTY brings desperation... We should all be grateful that none of us has had to suffer the sort of desperation that many Haitians are living in now...
with no shelter, and no food, and no way to make a living. ........

sorry,Chip, that was a cheap shot

but it truely deeply upsets me when people speak of others religions when they have no knowledge..

But you might indeed be genuinely interested

here is the web page for Max Beauvoir, who is the elected head of the voudosants.

What is the Temple of Yehwe

[CGH1KZzy]

Percepts of Behavior

more directly to your question on ethics

[CGH1KZzy]

From the Max Beauvoir page

For a human being, the body which is also called ‘Ko Kadav’ or cadaver is just a stepping stone upon which individuals should elevate themselves toward the development of the mind and then to spirituality."
"Prudence is an excellent disposition of the Soul that should never remain idle in a normal human being. It allows one to judge correctly what is good or what is bad in all occasions."
"Good and evil are not creations of God, but rather of the human being. So they should not be considered as absolute in value. A glance at everything the human mind might have conceived reveals nothing which may be viewed as absolutely Good or absolutely Evil, except one’s good will and the goodness of one’s heart. Intelligence, sharpness of the mind, ability to judge and the capacity to think ... all the many talents, whatever their name might be, such as courage, power of decision, intuition, perseverance ... are certainly desirable qualities for one to have. But, they may also be very Evil if and when the Will of the person using them (his or her character) is not a good one."
"Respect, politeness and gratefulness are basic qualities that everyone should always make use of. One starts learning them when one learns to say hello, please, thank you and pardon me."
"A dancer unwillingly steps on your foot, that is not wickedness but clumsiness. When you accept his or her apologies, that is not a pardon. It is simple politeness."
"Faithfulness is an obligation among friends, lovers and spouses. One must always remain faithful to oneself, to one’s word, to the Tradition of the ancestors and to the Lwa. The point is that one should never betray one’s self, one’s community, one’s country and what humanity has made of one as a human being."
"We regard virtue as acquired through self-discipline and predicate it of human beings only. Morality involves conformity to an accepted code of right conduct. It is less elevated but more concrete than virtue. Rectitude also implies conformity to a moral code, but stresses intention or disposition. Hence, a human being’s morality may arise from fear of punishment or of censure, but that person’s rectitude can only come from a love of the right and a conscious desire to follow it. The opposite of any kind of virtue are vices, evil and despicability, all the many forms of ignobleness."
"Lying is never a virtue, but neither are stupidity or putting oneself in a suicidal position".
"In life, it would be pure stupidity to put forward the other cheek when someone hits you in the face. Against violence, pull your machete. But make sure you had previously learned how to hit well and how to ward off."
"Those who behave like earthworms should never be surprised when people walk over them."
"Justice is the respect one shows for the equality of the other person’s rights, not for his/her might or strength."
"It is never good enough to live and not suffer, one must also live happily. Happiness is not just a question of luck, it has to be built on a daily basis by a constant practice of politeness and good morales. It is never given and should never be taken for granted." etc... etc...

[CGH1KZzy]

Information will be in tomorrow's papers. In Dajabon, they had announced the renewal of shipments of needed products, foodstuffs and construction materials, by truck into Haiti.

Well the Haitians, unhappy that there is no bi-national market, decided to block the passage of the trucks and even attacked a load of live chickens and burned them. They belonged to Haitians!!....

They seem to have no patience, no understanding, no comprehension, except what they want, when they want it. It is highly frustrating. Sometimes the phrase "Well ***k them and the burros they came in on!" comes to mind.

Like what I was told nearly 50 years ago: Drop one in from Cape Canaveral (before it was Kennedy) and say "Ooops, sorry"....and then start it all over again...

This stupidity has no explanation.

HB

HB.. I have a great respect for you but every time I see the title of this thread, it wounds my soul.

Haitians are, in my experience, the cleverest people that I have ever encountered. They have a capacity to do the absolute most with the absolute least. Few of us could survive under the conditions in which the majority of Haitians have to live.

Many things Haitians may be...

but stupid they are not.

[Siffidiolla]

but it truely deeply upsets me when people speak of others religions when they have no knowledge..

You mean like all the pseudo Catholics that tell me all about my faith.

At any rate you probably forget that I have a good Dominican friend who is part Haitian from Dajabon who has spent many years in Haiti working and speaks creole. We also are mutual friends with a Haitian Dominican pastor. That and some of the info that was posted on this forum are my source of information. I am not interested in fabricating lies to prove my point because I believe it, like all lies, would be doomed to failure no matter how short lived the deceit.

Finally, one interesting point that few who understand the vodoo culture could dispute is the illogical sorrow and apparent rejection of newborn babies by their mothers. I worked in a clinic in Haiti and know this first hand.

I believe that anymore people think that if people practice any form of religion(other than Christianity) that somehow it must be good. However, not all religions have beneficial practices. To wit, child sacrifice, genital mutilation etc.

[Nmoitmzr]

Child sacrifice - genital mutilation??
Rejection of new born babies???

Chip, I think you got a little bit confused -

We are talking about Haiti 2010 not Tahiti 1710....


You may not intend to be - but you are being bloody rude about people I care about.

Grow up.

Learn a little respect.

[Siffidiolla]

Baloney 1

You imply that the secular world does not know right from wrong.

I said their are little standards. It moves all over the place.

You imply Voodoo promotes irresponsible behaviour - that you do not have to responsible for your actions. Where did that come from - because it is BALONEY!

I will be glad to repost some some you posted to make my point.

You imply Voodoo induces mob like behaviour.
Ain't you ever heard of the crusades?

I don't know what that has to do with mobs but at any rate two wrongs don't make a right, even for an atheist.

[CGH1KZzy]

I believe that anymore people think that if people practice any form of religion(other than Christianity) that somehow it must be good. However, not all religions have beneficial practices. To wit, child sacrifice, genital mutilation etc.

I have a bit of difficulty following your English here....But I certainly agree that MANY religions do not have beneficial practices...

for instance..

banning the use of contreceptives
barring women from the priesthood

I appreciate that you are a devout Roman Catholic and believe that yours is the only path to God

As do fundamentalists of all religions.

Sometimes this may lead to lack of respect or tolerance for the religion of others.

I have found that the more evolved people become spiritually, the less it matters what route they used to get there.

[JulieSmithXIV]

Child sacrifice - genital mutilation??
Rejection of new born babies???

No Pete, he's talking about "other religions" generally. And those who practice none, like myself, are automatically immoral, by implication. Thanks Chip.

HB.. I have a great respect for you but every time I see the title of this thread, it wounds my soul.

Haitians are, in my experience, the cleverest people that I have ever encountered. They have a capacity to do the absolute most with the absolute least. Few of us could survive under the conditions in which the majority of Haitians have to live.

Many things Haitians may be...

but stupid they are not.

This sums up my reaction too.

[Siffidiolla]

Child sacrifice - genital mutilation??
Rejection of new born babies???

Chip, I think you got a little bit confused -

We are talking about Haiti 2010 not Tahiti 1710....


You may not intend to be - but you are being bloody rude about people I care about.

Grow up.

Learn a little respect.

Do me the favor of reading my posts more clearly. Where did I say Haitians do practice child sacrifice or genital mutilation.

I believe that anymore people think that if people practice any form of religion (other than Christianity) that somehow it must be good. However, not all religions have beneficial practices. To wit, child sacrifice, genital mutilation etc.

As far as the treatment of newborns I don't need you to tell me something that I know from firsthand knowledge.

[Siffidiolla]

And those who practice none, like myself, are automatically immoral, by implication. Thanks Chip.

I thought you were Jewish???

At any rate I said basically right and wrong are moving targets any more and you come up with this insinuation? Good grief.