[EbrsaRynleot]

In your humble opinion, when and how do you think The Dominican Republic has surpassed Haiti? And what can Haiti learn from its primo?

[Master_B]

DR brought spanish culture, haiti brought african culture.

the problem is over time people become very nationalistic and unwilling to look at other approaches.

[Siffidiolla]

Haiti's early leaders purged their country of it's knowledgeable businessmen, tradesmen and craftsmen, discouraged foreign immigration and made some very poor decisions like deciding to repay France and the Rural Code. The Rural Code commenced the rapid denuding of Haiti and the dismantling of the once efficient agricultural system. It's been a blame game since then with the elitists caring little for their own people.

[Master_B]

do you think haiti had a choice about repaying france? that kind of stuff went on in other colonies too; i suspect france could have forced repayment somehow (perhaps by embargoing international trade) since that kind of money isn't usually sent willingly.

[Siffidiolla]

do you think haiti had a choice about repaying france? that kind of stuff went on in other colonies too; i suspect france could have forced repayment somehow (perhaps by embargoing international trade) since that kind of money isn't usually sent willingly.

How would they force it if the Haitians had already kicked their arses off the island numerous times?

I understand a boycott was threatened but could it have been Boyers and others obvious distrust of whites that led him to believe he had no other choice? Remember, all "foreigners" were removed from the island and Hatians were forbidden from marrying them and they certainly would have no rights at all if they chose to stay in Haiti. I think if they had not had this prejudiced attitude they could have weathered the storm and found willing buyers for their suger as it prevented them from trusting "foreigners" enough to negotiate.

[VemyhemiHef]

do you think haiti had a choice about repaying france? that kind of stuff went on in other colonies too; i suspect france could have forced repayment somehow (perhaps by embargoing international trade) since that kind of money isn't usually sent willingly.

This is a interesting question. I think France put a lot of pressure on them. Remember they did try and get the Colony back by sending a large army. I am still not certain about the story around that and how succesfull the Haitians where in figthing Napoleans army or if they just mostly died of malaria. But I think the Haitians must still have been afraid of France and respected them a lot. Maybe they thought by paying the damages to France they would get accepted somehow by France and also avoid another attack. So maybe they paid out of respect and fear.

[espabamar]

There are many complex reasons why this has happened, but the bottom line comes down to education and how much corruption there is in each country. It is the same reason why Costa Rica has left it's neighbors behind (even though culturally and historically they are all pretty similar). It's not even a matter of democracy vs. dictatorship as we have all had dictators, but I guess it depends how "benevolent" the dictator has been. So you have Trujillo in the DR who at least paid off the national debt, maintained order, etc... vs. the papa and baby docs who all they cared about was taking everything for themselves...then you have examples like Chile which developed very rapidly in spite of (or maybe because of) having a ruthless dictator in charge.

[Master_B]

There are many complex reasons why this has happened, but the bottom line comes down to education and how much corruption there is in each country. It is the same reason why Costa Rica has left it's neighbors behind.

by that scale cuba should be #1 by now. puerto rico should also be doing better than it is

[espabamar]

by that scale cuba should be #1 by now. puerto rico should also be doing better than it is

Like I said there are many complex reasons, a lot of them historical, but if you take the last 100 years or so what I said apply. Both Cuba and Puerto Rico are special cases where both economies are skewed by the systems they currently live under. BTW I believe Cuba WOULD be number one in The Caribbean if they had their current level of education and a relatively non-corrupt government. Remember Cuba was already pretty developed before Castro, even though they lived under another "take it all for himself" dictator (Batista).

[brorwargy]

I was speaking with a political dissident from Haiti about four months ago and asked basically the same question. The answer he gave me was that when the Haitians overthrew slavery and their European overlords in the early 1800's they instantly became a threat to colonial powers in general and the United States in particular. Remember the United States was having a difficult time deciding its slavery issue. Four decades later an American civil war would be fought to help decide the slavery matter but during the 1820/30s when the Haitians freed themselves from slavery the US was not prepared. Just like any threat to the US economic interest, it over-reacted. The US placed an embargo on Haitian exports (which was substantial from what I have read). The embargo was made easier due to the fact that colonial powers were happy to squash Haitian influence. The Haitians were encouraging not only slave revolts but also independence in central and south America (ie. Simon Bolivar).

Thus the fledgling nation from the very start began to suffer economically. It makes sense to me that the United States would do whatever it took at the time to end Haitian influences in a hemisphere dependent on slavery. It also makes sense that other European powers would assist in Haiti's isolation during their time of waning strength.

I cannot address the anthropological or cultural influences stemming from the African influences. But obviously there was a "brain drain" which started early in its history and continues today.

Yet I find it ironic that the nation to cast-out colonial slavery instituted another form of slavery called restavek. Taking children from poor families and making them servants. Although the man I spoke with said that is not slavery but a benefit to the poor servant who is feed, educated, and given a trade. It has just been grossly abused so that now it resembles slavery.

Regardless, this is what I know and I look forward to others comments on the topic.

[Master_B]

while your post is interesting, what is a political dissident from haiti?

[Plaumpholavup]

Read this please. No politics, just basic history
Louisana Purchase was in April 1803
Haitian Independenca proclained 1 January 1804
The one might have been tied to the other but certainly not the result of the other.

I feel fairly certain that Napoleon realized that he was losing Haiti. His brother-in-law LeClerq was losing men to disease and vermin at a much faster rate than from the Haitians. Without Haiti, there was really no reason to keep Louisiana as a supply depot for Haiti.

At the moment of Haitian Independence, if we go by normal happening throughout history, everything that France had on the island should have become Haiti, right?
Well it so happended that Spain has ceded the eastern portion of the island, Santo Domingo to France via the Treaty of Basel (Basilea in Spanish) in 1795 or therabouts.
Toussaint had attempted to exercise controll over the eastern part, but failed.

After Haitian Independance, a Frenchman by the name of Ferrand took control of most of the eastern (former Spanish) portion, in the name of France, and ran it for a while, until Sanchez Ramirez defeated him at Palo Hincado. But Sanchez and his group were not strong enough to govern the whole place!Not even Santo Domingo which was still in French hands...Sanchez and his people needed the help of a British squadron to strangle the people in Sto Domingo into surrendering, but they would not surrender to the "Dominicans" but only to the English!! And then the English required the Dominicans to pay them for their expenses!!

And the colony was still, in theory, part of the French colony of Saint Domingue that had become Haiti. Because of the death of Toussaint and the internal divisions between Cristophe and the others, it was not until Boyer gained control of the whole western half, including the part that Cristophe had controlled and, promising land to the now out-of-work soldiers, took over the eastern part, almost without having to fire a shot.

(This was posted in another thread)

HB

[CializCialiscsqw]

while your post is interesting, what is a political dissident from haiti?

Political dissidents are people severely persecuted by governments or other organizations for political reasons.

Two examples

1. Jean-Bertrand Aristide

2. Gerard Jean-Juste

[VemyhemiHef]

Read this please. No politics, just basic history
Louisana Purchase was in April 1803
Haitian Independenca proclained 1 January 1804
The one might have been tied to the other but certainly not the result of the other.

I feel fairly certain that Napoleon realized that he was losing Haiti. His brother-in-law LeClerq was losing men to disease and vermin at a much faster rate than from the Haitians. Without Haiti, there was really no reason to keep Louisiana as a supply depot for Haiti.

At the moment of Haitian Independence, if we go by normal happening throughout history, everything that France had on the island should have become Haiti, right?
Well it so happended that Spain has ceded the eastern portion of the island, Santo Domingo to France via the Treaty of Basel (Basilea in Spanish) in 1795 or therabouts.
Toussaint had attempted to exercise controll over the eastern part, but failed.

After Haitian Independance, a Frenchman by the name of Ferrand took control of most of the eastern (former Spanish) portion, in the name of France, and ran it for a while, until Sanchez Ramirez defeated him at Palo Hincado. But Sanchez and his group were not strong enough to govern the whole place!Not even Santo Domingo which was still in French hands...Sanchez and his people needed the help of a British squadron to strangle the people in Sto Domingo into surrendering, but they would not surrender to the "Dominicans" but only to the English!! And then the English required the Dominicans to pay them for their expenses!!

And the colony was still, in theory, part of the French colony of Saint Domingue that had become Haiti. Because of the death of Toussaint and the internal divisions between Cristophe and the others, it was not until Boyer gained control of the whole western half, including the part that Cristophe had controlled and, promising land to the now out-of-work soldiers, took over the eastern part, almost without having to fire a shot.

(This was posted in another thread)

HB

I read that part of the reason the Haitians wanted control over the Eastern part of the Island, which is today the DR, was out of fear that the French would come back and invade and domininate the Haitian part. Maybe the battles against the French, when they sent an army back to regain control, had been very brutal and the Haitians had lost a lot of men. So they would do anything to avoid it again. Besides they did not want to be slaves again.

[xpllmr]

I don't think that we need to overthink this. Haiti's development as a functional democracy was seriously stunted as a result of capitulating to the French call for reparations in return for normalization of trade (which never happened).

Then came the Duvaliers...

The Duvaliers killer file

Haiti has been in an uphill battle from birth.

[VemyhemiHef]

Combined with the Duvalier period was also the communist threat. As it says in the Duvalier link Cuba supported an attempt to overthrow Duvalier. So like Trujillo in the DR that maybe helped him stay in power longer. But then as the Communist block got weaker and the cold war ended with the Sovjet collapse also the threat from Cuba dissapeared. So since the end of the 80ies until now what has been the reason for no real development in Haiti. I think it is in this period that DR really has developed. I think the DR must be top 5 in the Caribbbean and Central America if you dont count the wealthy small Islands. And maybe the DR is top 10 in LatAm. So why in the last 25-30 years has nothing changed to the better in Haiti when at the same time the DR has moved ahead?

[Master_B]

I don't think that we need to overthink this. Haiti's development as a functional democracy was seriously stunted as a result of capitulating to the French call for reparations in return for normalization of trade (which never happened).

the haiti founders didn't just give that money away expecting no return, and i know you're not so naive to think that either.

HB: can you shed some light on why haiti paid all that money to the french?

[Siffidiolla]

can you shed some light on why Haiti paid all that money to the French?

I'm not HB but have researched this topic somewhat.

Some of the sources I have read say their was a blockade by the French, a threat of one or that it was a requirement of the French in order that they be recognized. The threat of blockade of course would make it difficult for Haiti to export it's lumber and sugar.

At any rate, no matter what it was, Haiti had good relations with it's Southern neighbors in previous years and even had somewhat of a relationship (at least not belligerent)with the States in that they negotiated part of a resettlement of former slaves to Haiti.

I believe the Haitian leader Boyer overacted to the perceived French threat given that there was no way the French were going to invade again. He could have sold his products to Europe via South American countries or elsewhere if he had really tried. I have postulated that it could be because of the Haitian apparent distrust of foreigners, most especially white ones, may have intimidated him into making a rash judgment instead of exploring all his other options thoroughly. I could be wrong though.

Nonetheless, for whatever reason he chose to repay France's debt I don't think it was a good calculated decision based on the sources I have read.

[Plaumpholavup]

In part they paid it to keep France from invading again. However, they paid only a part of it, since Boyer was never able to attain the export level of pre-revolutionary Saint Domingue.

The Code Rural was designed to keep people on the land, producing for export. It just did not work. In the eastern portions of the island, only the tobacco farmers and cattlemen produced for export, along with some wood cutters (This had nothing to do with the Code Rural). In fact some of the Pre-Haitian Invasions leaders had traded valuable wood to Puerto Rico in exchange for weapons...is was just a resource to be used. (See my comments on Mahogany and the Monroe Doctrine)

HB

[xpllmr]

the haiti founders didn't just give that money away expecting no return, and i know you're not so naive to think that either.

HB: can you shed some light on why haiti paid all that money to the french?

One of many sources:

Haïtian Revolution: Facts, Discussion Forum, and Encyclopedia Article


Free republic

On January 1, 1804, DessalinesJean-Jacques DessalinesJean-Jacques Dessalines was a leader of the Haitian Revolution and the first ruler of an independent Haiti under the 1801 constitution. He was autocratic in his rule and crowned himself Emperor of Haïti in 1805....
, the new leader under the dictatorial 1801 constitution, declared Haiti a free republic. Haiti was the first independent nation in Latin America, the first post-colonial independent black-led nation in the world, and the only nation whose independence was gained as part of a successful slave rebellion. The country was crippled by years of war, its agriculture devastated, its formal commerce nonexistent, and the people uneducated and mostly unskilled.

Haiti agreed to make reparations to French slaveholders in 1825 in the amount of 150 million francs, reduced in 1838 to 60 million francs, in exchange for French recognition of its independence and to achieve freedom from French aggression. This indemnity bankrupted the Haitian treasury and mortgaged Haiti's future to the French banks providing the funds for the large first installment, permanently affecting Haiti's ability to be prosperous.

The end of the Haitian Revolution in 1804 marked the end of colonialism in Haiti, but the social conflict cultivated under slavery continued to affect the population. The revolution left in power an affranchiAffranchiThe word affranchi in the context of Haiti and other French Caribbean colonies meant specifically an emancipated slave. Some whites used the term more generally to refer to all free people of color , even those born free. Most free people of color were mulattoes, or of mixed race...
élite as well as the formidable Haitian army. France continued the slavery system in MartiniqueMartiniqueMartinique is an island in the eastern Caribbean Sea, with a land area of . It is an overseas department of France. To the northwest lies Dominica, to the south St Lucia, and to the southeast Barbados. As with the other overseas departments, Martinique is also one of the twenty-six regions of...
and GuadeloupeGuadeloupeGuadeloupe is an archipelago located in the eastern Caribbean Sea at , with a land area of 1,628 square kilometres . It is an overseas department of France. As with the other overseas departments, Guadeloupe is also one of the twenty-six regions of France and an integral part of the Republic...
. Great Britain was able to abolish its slave trade in 1807 and in 1833 abolished slavery completely in the British West IndiesBritish West IndiesThe term British West Indies refers to territories in and around the Caribbean which have been or were at one time colonised by the United Kingdom. Collectively these territories are also now known as the Anglophone Caribbean...
. France formally recognized Haiti as an independent nation in 1834, as did the United States in 1862.
Haitians were "free" all right. Free to starve to death while the French robbed their grandchildren's grandchildren. The "debt" wasn't "paid" until 1947.