[Jourgenz]

I find the History around the Hatian revolution fascinating. I have read a few books about the Haitian revolution. It was impressive how they managed to defeat the French Colonists. After their first revolt Napolean sent one of his Generals back with 58,000 men. At the time one of the best armies in the world. And the Hatians defeated them and continued their revolution. Off course what happened afterwards is another story. But they did not get much support from the International Community. Back then there was no NGOs, UN or Bill Clinton. There is a good book about the revolution by a Cuban-French author called "The kingdom of this world" or "El Reino de ese Mundo". I can recommend it.

Some people think the Haitians got their independence to early. There could be some truth to that. They got indpendence at a time where a lot of colonies where making a lot of money. So the rest of the Caribbean got scared of the same thing happening there. In Cuba for instance they changed policy so more and more labour where either poor Spanish farmers or very cheap labour from China. I have also read that the French where more ruthless than both the British and Spanish. And there where 10 workers for each French Colonist. French Saint Domingue was one of the richest colonies in the world at the time.

Have others on the Forum read about the history of the Haitian Revolution? And dont you think a revolution would have happened sooner rather than later than it did when you think about the way the French ruled the colony? Is their independence 200 years ago the cause for a lot of the problems Haiti has today?

[Master_B]

it would be interesting to hear from perspectives of people who have lived on other caribbean islands.. my observations about independence are based on brief visits to the Bahamas, Puerto Rico, Turks and Caicos and Haiti..

I'd like to hear from people more knowledgeable than I am.

[Nmoitmzr]

As I always do - I recommend reading the Black Jacobins by CLR James.

[CializCialiscsqw]

As I always do - I recommend reading the Black Jacobins by CLR James.

The Black Jacobins

I just read the summary, pretty interesting....

[Jourgenz]

As I always do - I recommend reading the Black Jacobins by CLR James.

I have read it. Yes it is very good.

[Jourgenz]

I can recommend Alejo Carpentier "The Kingdom of this world"
The Kingdom of this World - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Master_B]

yes we can read. but we can also learn a lot from quick observations.

for example did you know in the bahamas, most of its citizens have visited the US many times? i'm talking taxi drivers, waiters, everyone you run into as a tourist! and they prefer to stay in nassau because they like it.

also, in the bahamas, US immigration is actually physically in Nassau -- so once you board the plane you're on a domestic US flight! the only other country i ever saw this was ireland. that shows the level of immigration trust there is between the bahamas and the US..

by comparison flying from the DR to the US we get armed DHS agents waiting outside the door of the plane checking passports.

And all the bahamian people i saw looked pretty similar to haitians, there was just a lot less of them (300k vs ~10M)

[JulieSmithXIV]

There's a historical fictional trilogy about Haitian independence by US author Madison Smartt Bell:

Amazon.com: All Souls' Rising: A Novel of Haiti (1)…
Amazon.com: Master of the Crossroads (9781400078387): Madison Smartt Bell: Books
Amazon.com: The Stone that the Builder Refused (9781400076185): Madison Smartt Bell: Books

Not usually my sort of thing, but I found myself reading the first two and will read the third at some point when I can get hold of a copy. Has anyone else hear read them and what did you think?

[JulieSmithXIV]

For some heavy and entertaining reading.

Check out Madison Smart Bell's trilogy about the Haitian revolution.

1. All Souls Rising (1995)

2. Masters Of The Crossroads (2000)

3. The Stone That The Builder Refused (2004)

Sorry, I hadn't seen your post when I posted mine. Heavy and entertaining sums it up very well. It was also good to be able to visualise some of the locations having spent time there - Cap-Haitien and environs.

[XU8i6ysK]

Check out that 58,000 French troops sent by Napoleon. He was very busy at the time and even sold off 1/3 of the North America to the U.S. to finance his Euro adventures.
And "international community" in 1804? In the Caribbean.
It was a very successful slave revolt against few Euros by a huge population of slaves (largest in the Americas at that time) and taken over by a shipwrecked mulatto from Grenada — Roi Christophe, a genius, and the real story.

[Adwetyren]

"The bahamian people looked pretty similar to haitians" is the type of irrelevant statement a lack of knowledge produces.

Both Bahamians and Haitians are primarily of Yoruba(Benin and Nigerian) descent which is ethnically different than most American Blacks. I think his intent was that say there is nothing racially about Haitians holding them back, which seems to have backfired on him. It is a pretty simply thing for someone in the Bahamas to get a tourist visa to the US. For Haitians, not so much.

[Nmoitmzr]

Do not be fooled that early Haitian history was anything to do with race.
That is how it is portrayed - but it was more about convenience - the biggest influences were the ongoing war between England and France and the Revolution in France itself.

Santhanax knew this.

Toussaint knew this.

Dessalines - not so much.

[Nmoitmzr]

And what does the racial similarity between two nations have to do with their level of development????

Do tell.

For example North Korea sucks and South Korea sucks less.
Can we draw conclusions from this disparity in the suck-rate?

Well the fact that both are Korean in not helpful.

That is the kind of logic you find here.
And yes - what starts as a conversation turns into free association very rapidly until somebody starts talking about race and religion, then somebody gets personal which is closely followed by the thread being shut down by a moderator.

Welcome to DR1!!!

Never forget that this site is a privately owned business, is very successful and in my opinion well moderated - mostly!

There are rules that you need to subscribe to before you are even allowed to post - like a constitution of sorts.
And they offer a full refund should you wish to leave.

[Master_B]

And what does the racial similarity between two nations have to do with their level of development????

everything! if both bahamian and haitian people came from the same place in africa, then the only difference is where they now live and the culture that was imposed on them.

And also please tell me the african ethnic origin of black americans

i'd also be curious to know this.

[Nmoitmzr]

if both bahamian and haitian people came from the same place in africa, then the only difference is where they now live and the culture that was imposed on them.

Does this mean that Haitians are not just inherently and terminally worthless and doomed to live in earthly Purgatory?

[Adwetyren]

American Blacks came primarily from farther south in Africa in areas such as the Congo while slaves working in French, Brazilian and many Caribbean colonies(particularly the lesser Antilles) came more from the bight of Benin.

[Jourgenz]

Check out that 58,000 French troops sent by Napoleon. He was very busy at the time and even sold off 1/3 of the North America to the U.S. to finance his Euro adventures.
And "international community" in 1804? In the Caribbean.
It was a very successful slave revolt against few Euros by a huge population of slaves (largest in the Americas at that time) and taken over by a shipwrecked mulatto from Grenada — Roi Christophe, a genius, and the real story.

Yes the Colonists got to greedy and ended up loosing control of the plantations. First the africans started by poisining them. Scared the Colonists. It was a Jamican born Mackandal who I believe started this. He was captured by the Colonists who executed him in front of a crowd to scare the workers. At the same time a bird or something flew up in the air and the workers celebrated believing that was Mackandal escaping. The colonists found it very primitive that they could celebrate the death of thier hero. And it scared them too. I read this in "The Kingdom of this World" which is part factual and part fiction. I think it is true about the 58,000 French troops send to regain control. Not sure where I read that though.

[Master_B]

Does this mean that Haitians are not just inherently and terminally worthless and doomed to live in earthly Purgatory?

once you know the cause of the problem, you can work on fixing it. i'm more and more convinced haiti's problem is a cultural problem; its the mindset of the people.

[Nmoitmzr]

once you know the cause of the problem, you can work on fixing it. i'm more and more convinced haiti's problem is a cultural problem; its the mindset of the people.

I agree to a certain extent.
But the cultural problem I see is that the "haves" see them selves as being threatened if they ever let the "have-nots" start having.
AND NOT that Haitians are culturally - lazy, stupid, resistant to change, anti-white or any other generalisation.

I have proved this. We have taken average Haitians, employed them, turned them into independent sub-contractors and they have succeeded and flourished. When our contract came to an end all these sub-contractors are still doing the same work for the new company.

Another problem, so I am told, is that unless you play with and encourage a child to develop fine motor skills and cognitive reasoning and learning before the age of 4 and ensure they have a nutritious diet high in protein at this young age then they will never have the chance of developing as strongly as a child that has these things. This is irreversible, so I am told.

Children need toys and attention, school, food and security.
That takes money in the hand of the parents.

That is not cultural - that is economic and physical.

And remember my old saying - poverty is economic - not genetic.

[Master_B]

I agree to a certain extent.
But the cultural problem I see is that the "haves" see them selves as being threatened if they ever let the "have-nots" start having.

your entire post was very interesting thank you. but this comment above was particularly interesting. can you talk more about it?