[JanetMorris]

I believe that hell exists only in our heads. Created by old world christians in order to cast fear amongst the people in order to manipulate and control them. If hell exists at all, I would say it is a manifestation of bad Karma, brought on by doing things we feel are personally wrong for us. The personal guilt leads to trauma in our life... hell on earth.

[DrJonson]

"Hell is other people."

So is heaven.
----------------------------------

I'm reminded of a story. One I may have posted before...

A great General, nearing the end of his life, began to ponder the nature of Heaven and Hell.
Being a Military man, not a Philosopher nor a Priest, sought the advce of the Sage.

The Sage became irritated, saying: "You come to me wishing to know the nature of Heaven and Hell? And you are the man who leads our armies? You are not fit to be called Man, let alone General!"

This angered the General, and he drew his sword to kill the Sage.

As the General began to swing the Sage spoke: "Here lie the gates of Hell."

The General, realizing the Sage was teaching him, fell on his face in apology.

To which the Sage replied: "Here lie the gates of Heaven."

[Ladbarbastirm]

Hi DeztanyFreedom,

Nice post. I agree, of course.



Hi Greyface,

Yep. Good story example.


Peace & Love!

[Helloheshess]

I believe that hell exists only in our heads. Created by old world christians in order to cast fear amongst the people in order to manipulate and control them. If hell exists at all, I would say it is a manifestation of bad Karma, brought on by doing things we feel are personally wrong for us. The personal guilt leads to trauma in our life... hell on earth.

Aye, if you look around you will see all sorts of forms of fear still used today...when my 6 year old girl is standing near a 800' cliff with no guard rails it is my best interest to scare the hell out of her to keep her safe! ~smiles~.

Remember the days of ole when mothers would tell their children there were trolls in the woods so their kids wouldn't get lost? ~smiles~

Seems more of a control tactic than an esoteric reality ~smiles~

[Bejemoelemymn]

Well,Ive studied religious systems over my 54 yrs..I ve a book on Judaism by Rabbi Dosic,says we are like a little piece of light for our soul,came from God,goes back to god.Howeva,the Judaic belief in hell,is being cut off from god,eternally ,as a choice one makes.
Other religious systems say that God has good n evil sides,just like people,& you wanna stay on god/Goddess es good side,you really don t wanna see their dark side.
I got a uncle in the Masons ,spouted off at me saying people are really going to be surprise when they go to see God in the afterlife ,sorting horns like the baphomet/devil is pictured in Christian society.In the middle ages,Christians made Jews wear horns for their belief in God as being horned.The jews also had horns on their early altars;it was said they could get sanctuary in church if they could reach the altar,& touch the horns,as a mercy of the church,I read.All the statues of pagan Gods/Goddesses were made with horns to signify they were dieties as opposed to common le.When Christians came along,it was a thing where youre with Christ or against him,thus the devil is with horns.
Zarathrustra was pictured at times as having a evil twin who must be propitiated,if one wanted to keep the devil off ones back,the masons my dad told me were involved ritually with this system amongst others.He was from the middle eastern world like Babylon,Persia,Assyria...This is where scolars say the devil made his debut,then influencing Judaism,as Jews were beaten,in warfare then made into slaves.The angels also were a offshoot likewise of the ancient pagan world,7 rubbed off ,influencing Jews,scolars in captivity.
Then too,Ancient Egypt had a pagan system of angels,& 7 levels of Heaven above ,with 7 levels of Hell below,influencing Judaism.Set,Setti was the Devil by another name;at death ,your soul was weighed in the balance,on the scales of the Gods,against a feather counterweight,symbolically,if you had bad on your soul ,depending on how bad your eternity would put you somewhere in those 14 levels of heaven n hell,like Machiavelli s book.
The Egyptian priesthood could make sacrifices on your behalf,for fees,just like the ole testament Jewish priesthood hqd to do burn t sacrifices,for various infractions.
The RC s ,go to confession,the priest tells them to say so many Our Fathers,Hail Mary s,& make a cood act of contrition,like paying compensation for doing property damage;paying back for a theft,etc..Then theres the collection plate as a hybrid of the burnt sacrifices,& the poor box,doing something for charity.
The Hasidic Rabbi s are the ones to do the Talisman thing,with The Jewish letters representing various aspects of God.Jesus was said to be closest to the Hasidic Rabbis,with their Cabala majic, n talismans.The Egyptian priesthood also did magic rituals on patrons behalf ,similar to these;had talismans,would perform elaborate rituals for patrons,n families,n the dead,the masons also use some of this ritual stuff.
Ah,the nostalgia...Its written in the old testament for those who would have their sins forgiven to fast from sundown to sundown,a Jewish day runs from sundown to sundown!
Its my belief that the masons use ritual magic from diverse sourceto lay some malific stuff on societies members ,like vigilantes of the occult world.They back the police organized crime scenarios,like liquor,gambling ,& brothels,being 1/2 law enorcement in their ranks.The Shriners are higher echelon cadre.The Order of the Golden Dawn bookI had said it was higher levels of masonic degrees in its ritual initiations,thats the 1000 or so pg book on the Hermetic Order of Golden Dawn.Rosicrucianism /Order of the Rosey Cross was said to be roughly equivalent to the golden dawn.The Masons have a belief of not giving preference to any one religion,& have a diverse tool box to draw from,like angeic,hermetic ,zoroastrianism,middle eastern,pagan.I heard my uncle,a mason spout that we all got it wrong about lucifer,he s a angel of light,& like hes the true God,talking about references in the bible about God is light,while the devil is darkness.So its my educated opinion that they lean on luciferian ritual magic to effect some of their secret stuff;chi vampirism,etc..I also hear they transfer their bad karma to the next generation,automatically,on becoming initiated.then I heard one way of getting that kind of monkey off my back was to become a mason,then it d fall to the next generation,howeva ,Im said to be infertile,& had no kids to become victims like that curse is said to be...

[casinobonbone]

See:www.aboutus.org/User:Khbostic for some of my personal Hell,comments,suggestions appreciated.Then,there was Hell.Michigan,Ive been thru there a few times,west of Detroit,2 seconds and your past there.
I know,some of the reincarnationists would say people with negative life situations must have made some bad karma in past lives to be in negative situations in this one.The Church & school of wicca teaches a positive /progressive ,limited reincarnation of 3 lives,all better than the last,before staying ascended in the afterlife/FYIA page off my talisman set being sold for charities,maybe will help my overall karmic debt,Ive put out apx 3 million bucks in 4,5,6 leaf clovers & talisman sets with my health & longlife resource pgs,2/3rds went to Red Cross efforts,some to fund orphanages in 3 rd world countries to be food co ops,so theyll be self sustaining,& lots to fund food for African drought causing famine,so ,for food production for same,some wells,jobs,etc.
Anecdotally,I heard a story concerning Heaven & Hell.A group of people were at the dinner table with crooks,sorta like a shepherds cane, tied on their forearms ,where they couldn t reach the food.In heaven,the people co operated pushing the food to the others hands,helping one another.In Hell,same scenario,except no one helped each other,so they had the food in front of them ,but couldn t eat,no co operation,or helping one another!There must be a moral in this short story somewhere to find !

[InsManKV]

There must be a moral in this short story somewhere to find !

Don't look too hard for the lesson. It is plain sight. If we help each other we all eat - if we are concerned with only ourself none eat. One is heaven and the other is hell.

Peace & Love!

[gagagaridze]

I have always found it strange that in the Christian religion GOD is portrayed as the kind and paternal "Heavenly Father" some of the time and a vengful and fear producing Diety who would send someone to "eternal damnation" some other times. Now I realize that parents go through different emotions depending on what the children do, but the idea of eternal punishment is so foreign to Native Americans that maybe you can understand why it took many years to convert some of us and some of us will never be converted. If love is truly the answer, how does this damnation thingee fit in? Oh well, one of these days we'll all find out! (or not).

[Rounteetepe]

I have always found it strange that in the Christian religion GOD is portrayed as the kind and paternal "Heavenly Father" some of the time and a vengful and fear producing Diety who would send someone to "eternal damnation" some other times. Now I realize that parents go through different emotions depending on what the children do, but the idea of eternal punishment is so foreign to Native Americans that maybe you can understand why it took many years to convert some of us and some of us will never be converted. If love is truly the answer, how does this damnation thingee fit in? Oh well, one of these days we'll all find out! (or not).

Excellent point and question Ron, though not only an NA issue. I too always had problems with this...and it made accepting a Goddess much easier for me...you know the kind motherly Lady.

I hope someone might be able to give their answer or interpretation. I find it interesting.

[Super-Luser]

Let me go back into the distant recesses of time (okay, 2002) when I was still studying the Bible with the Anglicans...before I broke away from nearly all Christian beliefs....

The fundamentalist Christians base their beliefs and dogma on a literal interpretation of the entire Bible, with a strong emphasis on the Old Testament, i.e., the Judaic Hebrew texts. If you go back to the original Hebrew texts, which were written over a long period in history, there were a couple of different Hebrew words for God. One was Elohim and the other was Jehovah. A close reading of the texts shows that Elohim behaved kindly and Jehovah was the angry vengeful God.

There were two different names because they refer to two different Gods! It is not well known that there was a time when the Jews were not monotheistic. They had numerous gods, just like the "pagan" religions. In fact they WERE pagan for all intents and purposes.

So uh...if the fundamentalists' God seems a bit, pardon the expression, "schizo"...this is the reason. No offence intended to any Christians on the board. Those of you who live according to the teachings of Jesus are on a beautiful path. The Bible is beautiful literature and has much to offer in wisdom teachings...and mythology that was never intended to be taken literally.

[AlexBolduin]

Nice post Rev. Sheila.

Peace & Love!

[Verger99]

Do you believe in hell? I know many Pagan's don't and the question then is...just because we DON'T believe in Hell does it mean it doesn't exist?

Many Christians believe firmly in Hell...not as a concept but as an eternal place. What makes us...the non-hell believers...so sure that it doesn't exist?

I believe in a world free of heaven and hell, good and evil, and because I believe this, it makes it reality for me
Religion is a human creation, the dichotomy of good and evil is also a human invention, I am sure, for me, that it does neither hell nor heaven exists in my world.
However, on the other side of the coin, shaman coin that is, in the interests of metaphor and symbology, it is useful to hold beliefs in the upperworld, or heavens, the middleworld, or material reality, and the underworld, or hell. This should not be confused with good/evil dualistic thinking.
I believe that one can both believe in such ideas and not believe in such ideas. In fact, I think it is important that one understands both the "spiritual" side of things as well as the secular side of things. On yet another side of the 3 sided hyoka coin, we can play with the yin yang dichotomy.

[Msrwbdas]

Interesting post Sun Walker.

Am I correct in seeing you suggesting a possible return to singularity (beyond good and evil) prior to death?

Peace & Love!

[cigattIcTot]

Interesting post Sun Walker.

Am I correct in seeing you suggesting a possible return to singularity (beyond good and evil) prior to death?

Peace & Love!

generally I try and take an animal standpoint, or my perception of an animal standpoint; before good and evil became knowable concepts,

but you cause me to think, what if indeed, the idea of good and evil has always been with us and shedding this burden is a step beyond

take the example of someone playing with "black" magic, most would say this person is evil for doing so, however there is surely deep seated psychological reasons for why this person acts out in this way, or why this person prefers isolation and negativity
or another example of someone volunteering their time for charitable causes, some would say this person is good, I would be more apt to say this person cares about themselves and thus cares about their world, rather than attributing it to some abstract religious concept

when the blinders of good and evil are shed, things become much more neutral and easily explanable

[AgowlSown]

Hi Sun Walker,

Thanks for the reply. I was searching out the base of your life philosophy. Am I correct in assuming that much of your philosophy is NA based?

Yes, I think what you said regarding animals, if we humans could look at the world through the eyes of, say, a wolf (my spirit guide is the cougar), we could view the world from a position beyond good and evil.

And I agree that the concepts of good and evil do oftentimes blur our vision. I would almost go so far as to say that looking at the world from a neutral standpoint and just doing what needs to be done for the benefit of the 'All' without considering 'good and evil' or 'right and wrong'.

Peace & Love!

[realfan87]

Do you believe in hell? I know many Pagan's don't and the question then is...just because we DON'T believe in Hell does it mean it doesn't exist?

Many Christians believe firmly in Hell...not as a concept but as an eternal place. What makes us...the non-hell believers...so sure that it doesn't exist?

[makemoneyonli]

I R Pagan!

I also believe in Hell...I believe pussies who don't stick up for themselves or what is right will go to that hell where the spirits of chaos will reside over them and make them crazy for all eternity!

People who fight for their rights, and what is right go the glorious Hall of Odin in the Valhalla!

The bottom line for me though is, I don't know and don't really care ~chuckles~ I just do the best I can and if there is a God who wants to burn me I will strike him if I can and give him the defiant finger all the way to the burning fires! ~smiles~

[hexniks]

Don't know if it exists or not..haven't been there..haven't heard any reports back from those who claim they have.....no idea...

[IntinyBut]

Yes Connie, Hell exists. A couple of my wives sent me there.

Sorry.

Okay. Serious. I do not believe in a place called Hell. I believe that both Heaven and Hell are condition of life and they lie within each of us. We choose which we wish to celebrate.

But, as you questioned, no, I don't believe we can ever prove that a place called Hell does not exist. It is hard enough to prove something actually exists let alone trying to prove something does not exist.

Peace & Love!

[BodoidearoLew]

I don't believe in the Biblical Hell. I do believe there are uncomfortable or isolated places some people go to after they pass, until they are ready to deal with what they have done on the earth plane. Once they are ready to deal with it, there is always the hope of progress on the other side, and/or through reincarnation.

At least this is what makes sense to me, based on what I have learned in Spiritualism and based on the work of my favorite author, Dr. Michael Newton (Journey of Souls, and Destiny of Souls). I've also encountered the spirit of someone who did some very bad stuff on the earth plane (an ex-husband, actually, I won't go into details) who is now repentant on the other side. And frankly I am able to forgive him. If there really was a Biblical eternal Hell, believe me he would have been a prime candidate.