[UpperMan]

The Marines are basically Army Junior.

"Oh look at us! We have different Uniforms! We're light infantry with APCs that go in the water! We're going to re-live Normandy some day!"

"Huh? What do you mean Normandy was a ARMY operation?"

We shoudl just fold the whole organization into the Army, or reduce it so they can get back to just guarding nukes.

[EliteFranceska]

May Chesty haunt your soul. May your child's first words be "Ooh-rah" and "Yut yut". May you have nightmares of devil dogs and Gunnery Sergeants in Smokey covers.

[harriettvanders]

My point is, it destroys the myth of the US Marine Corps being awesome, innovative, and "America's Fire Brigade".

Historically, USMC apologists have pointed to the Marine Corps long tradition from 1900-1939 of "filibustering" in various Caribbean and Central American countries, as proof that they have the institutional knowledge and doctrine to execute the role of America's Fire Brigade, etc.

Sadly, that doesn't hold up to historical scrutiny; as shown above by the article; e.g. that in 136 separate instances, the US Navy landed groups of it's sailors ashore as literal naval infantry in actions ranging up to brigade level against major enemy forces. And this was done all without the special training that the US Marine Corps prides itself on.

They literally just picked landing parties from ships' contigents and formed them into the required units of action and sent them ashore, using US Army training manuals and doctrine, which kind of destroys the Marine claim of superior training and doctrine, when a bunch of SAILORS can do just as good.
Get rid of the Jarheads!

[emuffette]

More Marine apologism. Fold 'em into the Army!

[altosburg]

I have nothing to say to you.

You're just angry because you can't think of a real reason to maintain the Marines as a seperate entity.

[Asianunta]

I think the original article that motivated this thread is enough reason to maintain the Marine Corps as a separate branch of service.

Story

The Top Ten Basic Training Changes
July 20, 2010
Army News Service|by Kelly Schloesser

This year, Basic Combat Training has gone through a transformation. Here are some of the changes you'll see in new Basic and OSUT courses, as of 1 July 2010:

1. BCT has become more challenging...not "softer." BCT has been extended from nine weeks to 10. The Warrior Tasks and Battle Drills (WTBD) have been refined, and are now geared toward training fewer and more relevant tasks well. These tasks and battle drills correspond with the current operating environment, and we are using training that is geared toward the generation of Soldiers entering our Army during this time of war...and those must be adapted to all the Occupational Specialties. (Find the WTBD on the, Army Training Network)

2. Rifle Marksmanship is more extensive, with more hours on the range, more bullets fired, and Soldiers using both Basic and Advanced techniques. Soldiers now fire 500 rounds (750 for infantry) during basic, and also have to "certify" as part of the Combat Field Fire phase based on the new Rifle Marksmanship Strategy. While all BCT Soldiers fire "slick" (no equipment) through qualification tables (BRM) to allow for familiarity with the weapon, equipment is worn during the difficult and combat-related Advanced Rifle Marksmanship (ARM) period.

3. Combatives are more relevant...and tougher! New instruction has been added which teaches Soldiers to fight from their feet, not wrestle and grip on the ground. Soldiers now attend 22 hours of instruction, which is double the previous requirement at BCT. Additional techniques - wearing full kit - have been added that is more relevant to what Soldiers might be asked to do in a combat situation.

4. Most up-to-date medical training in Tactical Combat Casualty Care (TCCC) and Combat Lifesaver (CLS). Medical experts have taken combat lessons and updated the first aid training Soldiers receive. There's no longer an IV "stick. Why? Because doctors say it's counterproductive on the battlefield, and useless for treating heat injuries. New techniques for preventing heat injuries before they happen are now taught.

5. Physical Training is standardized, with scientifically proven techniques that improve conditioning and help prevent injuries. Those returning from combat say "drop the long runs, the repetitive sets of pushups and sit-ups, and volleyball games; instead focus on training the right muscles and energy systems needed in the fight! Prepare your body for walking patrol with SAPI and equipment or hauling your injured buddy out of harm's way!" FM 22-20 has been replaced with TC 3.22-20, and that applies to Soldiers in Basic Combat Training and the entire Army (and, you can get this Training Circular as an app starting in August)!

6. No more bayonet assault course against rubber tires...but lots more pugil and combatives against a thinking opponent. The bayonet assault course has been a staple of bayonet training since WWI. But that's when bayonets were prevalent on the battlefield! The last time the US had a bayonet assault was in 1951, and the rifle we now use in combat isn't meant for bayonet charges. Now, Soldiers will see more pugil drills in pits and on obstacle courses. This, combined with additional hours in combatives, will "warriorize" our Soldiers.

7. Expanded Values and Culture Training. Soldiers will still receive instruction in the Seven Army Values, but that instruction will focus on applying those values in combat, in garrison, and during off-duty time. That's to build a better Soldier...and a better citizen! And all Soldiers will now be issued a The Army Soldier's "Blue Book" (also available as an iPhone or Droid app) that links our present-day Soldier to his predecessors, and describes our professional requirements.

8. We're treating the Soldier as a "Tactical Athlete". The Surgeon General of the Army will begin supplementing initial training units with physical therapists and athletic trainers to prevent injuries and ensure better conditioning. Additionally, we're instituting the "Soldier Fueling" initiative, to teach and enable Soldiers to develop a nutritional lifestyle to counter our societal challenges.

9. We've instituted Comprehensive Soldier Fitness (CSF). Every Drill Sergeant has received Resiliency Training, and all new Soldiers take the Global Assessment Tool upon entering Basic. Additionally, all AIT Platoon Sergeants receive 10 days of resiliency training.

10. We're connected to Social Media, and on web pages. IMT does fall under TRADOC, but no decision is made without Soldiers input. Visit our social media sites and tell us what you think. We'll listen!
In fact it doesn't look like what the original article was saying at all!(ie the blue book would be available as an App on a smartphone, the smartphone woudln't be issued)

But still no running around with sharp knives attached to your rifles. Oh noes!

[trilochana.nejman]

BCT has been extended from nine weeks to 10. Marine recruit training is 13 weeks; OCS is 10 weeks.

New instruction has been added which teaches Soldiers to fight from their feet, not wrestle and grip on the ground. Soldiers now attend 22 hours of instruction, which is double the previous requirement at BCT. Additional techniques - wearing full kit - have been added that is more relevant to what Soldiers might be asked to do in a combat situation. Hmm... kind of like MCMAP?!

Those returning from combat say "drop the long runs, the repetitive sets of pushups and sit-ups, and volleyball games; instead focus on training the right muscles and energy systems needed in the fight! Prepare your body for walking patrol with SAPI and equipment or hauling your injured buddy out of harm's way!" FM 22-20 has been replaced with TC 3.22-20, and that applies to Soldiers in Basic Combat Training and the entire Army (and, you can get this Training Circular as an app starting in August)! One, what the **** do they mean by volleyball games? Two, kind of like functional fitness which the Marines have had for years... Next, the Army is going to be having a CFT!


Maybe the Army should be called Marine Corps Junior but with all the people that don't make the cut.

[animilius]

I also think he's making a misleading statement by saying that Marine basic is 13 weeks. IIRC, basic is half that and "Rifleman" school is another 7.


RAR EVERY JARHEAD A RIFLESMANS.

[Forex Trading Software]

Marines are basically the most overrated service, and most redundant one. To me it's amazing that someone thought it would be a good idea to make a second army and a second(even third!) air force out of them.

So it's like the Waffen SS of the USA...

[Dwencejed]

Just called a friend doing Marine OCS. He confirmed it takes a real faggot to get a stress fracture.

[Arximedus]

Just called a friend doing Marine OCS. He confirmed it takes a real faggot to get a stress fracture.

PLCer? If so, he can shut the hell up because he didn't do the real OCC.

[yPuqQ248]

That's like saying some Marines aren't real Marines, which I'm pretty sure is treason. My contact tells me he knows girls at VMI with stress fractures and that you should hook up with one of them. (He confirmed that you are a faggot and meant this sarcastically I think.)

PLCers only have to do 6 weeks of OCS at a time. pssht... I did 7 weeks twice. Punks.

If I did PLC, I would be a 2nd Lieutenant by now. I've done more weeks than any PLCer.

[kabelshik]

Maybe the Army should be called Marine Corps Junior but with all the people that don't make the cut.

What ever. The Army's job is to be the giant on hand to handle all those situations which the Marine Corp is to small or too weak to handle. That's just reality. They're designed to be small self contained force where as the Army is designed to fight huge WW1 & 2 style conflicts.

[Alkassyinhisk]

The Marine Corps is for short self contained campaigns while the Army is for truly massive long term campaigns which, frankly, the Marine Corps is incapable of handling. Only because the Army is so much bigger. The Marine Corps and USMCR have a quarter of the personnel of the Army and Army Reserve. Also, on a per person basis, the Marine Corps requires less funding.


The Army's job is to be the giant on hand to handle all those situations which the Marine Corps is to small or too weak to handle. too weak to handle? Too small; not too weak.

You forgot the real reason why the Marine Corps exists: America's Shock Troops.

[Tarrccrys]

Only because the Army is so much bigger. The Marine Corps and USMCR have a quarter of the personnel of the Army and Army Reserve. Also, on a per person basis, the Marine Corps requires less funding.

That's because the Army provides the bulk of the logistics for not only itself but the Air Force and the Marine Corps when they're on land. The Army also has way more expensive toys to maintain. Yes, the Marines have their own tiny air support units but the Army has **** loads of extremely expensive tanks, armored personal carriers, and motorized artillery to pay for. Oh, we also provide most of the trucks to transport stuff, specialized railroad building units, and pay for most of the bases and warehouses. The Marines on the other hand suck from the tits of either the Navy or Army depending on if they are at land or at sea. The Marines don't even have the logistical capability to sustain themselves beyond a short period of time and remember the REMFs make up 75% of the service.

[Dilangos]

too weak to handle? Too small; not too weak.

Too small means too weak.

[OlegSan]

Lonestar, there is a good reason to have a Marine Corp. It's job is to have a small standby force to make short incursions or strikes into enemy territory and to be able to self sustain the effort for a short duration (certainly less then a couple of months). Now, if the conflict is much larger or is longer then a couple of months then that is what the Army is for. The Marine Corp is for short self contained campaigns while the Army is for truly massive long term campaigns which, frankly, the Marine Corp is incapable of handling. The Air Force should really still be part of the Army because it's main duties are to supply the Army, to transport the Army, and to provide ground support for the Army.

That's great. Of course the Marines have been primarily acting in the role of Army Junior since, oh, WW2. Especially in the past decade when you have these goons operatinh several hundred miles inland NOT operating under a "short incursion or strike".

I am unconvinced that a seperate branch is needed for a force that is suppose to be offshore troubleshooters. Instead the USMC has mutated into a very large Army Jr with it's own air force.