[StitsVobsaith]

"Tamurlane."


Tamerlane

[Dpkefsuf]

I could also have gone "Tamburlaine," as I kinda liked the Marlowe rendition.

[gorbasevhuynani]

Timurlane was ****in A.

[Jimambol]

Frankly the USA is well to the left of the Mongols.

[exchpaypaleg]

Then who devastated Orthodox Russia? The Nazis?

[elossenen]

Meanwhile over here in Korea, it's usually the Left that indulges in the sort of xenophobic frothing at the mouth nationalism that you usually see from the Right in the West.

In Korea the Left (as opposed to Center-Left, which is just slightly less stupid) Korean party is a big proponent of increased tariffs, despite being voter base being mostly among unionized workers in export industries (i.e. the ones who'd be the most hurt by tariffs and helped the least). You can't get too much dumber than that.

[2swasseneons]

Well, the dutch social system is very very very leftish, compared to the USA.
I'm myself dutch right-wing but I would never support the American social system (or the lack of it). I do support a lot of the dutch public social system and I think it's good that it's there, though I think it's over the top and encourages people to stop working or stop trying to find work.

But if I hear all the opposition to ie. Obama's health plan, then I'm really shocked. Are you guys crazy overthere? Such a health system is only good. I don't know the details or the ins and outs of his system, but in general I think it's good that a civilized nation has a public health system. All right-wing people overhere in The Netherlands agree with that.

The entire guns discussion shocks me as well. I think it's crazy that everybody can have guns in the states. And then it's supported with arguments like: "people kill, guns don't" or "cars kill more people then guns."
C'mon guys, that's like a little child is making up excuses to keep his toy.
I understand that it's hard to seperate from something you've had for a long time.

Well, if it's about abortion, I'm pretty conservative there, compared to the rest of The Netherlands. Though I cannot imagine ever using violence to support my opinion here.

Despite being a christian I'm not opposed to gay marriage or euthenasia.
I don't understand how in the 21th century there's still a "don't tell, don't ask" policy about gays in the army. I think that even our most ultra-orthodox christian political parties would not support a "don't tell, don't say" policy. Eventhough they do not accept gay-marriage (or gay relations), they still do not handle gays as if they're evil. (eventhough that of course is already considered to be an unacceptable point of view overhere in Holland).

Regarding our 'christian' political parties.
We also have christian democrats. (I am one).
A christian democtratic party is not a christian party. It is often confused to be one, but it's not. christian-democracy has the opinion that there's not such a thing as christian politics because christianity is not a political system.
There is such a thing though as a politician that's inspired by the Bible.
So the party is not christian but the members can be christian (don't even have to be).
There are also christian parties here (christen union and reformed party).
These parties are christian and want to translate the Bible into politics, but they're pretty small. (though the christian union was a part of the government past period, as the smallest party)

a christian democratic party would never give "the Bible" as a reason for an opinion, a law or an objection. In fact christian democratic translates into: "christians commiting democracy" not "people committing christian politics"

I think parties like christian union and reformed party do reflect american christian politics like anti abortion, etc. more. So it's still a small minority here.

Hope that helps

[Pa33anger]

Christians in europe do not have a shared political opinion, apart from 'christian issues'.
There are christians among left-wing parties and among right-wing parties.

Which makes sence, christianity is not a political system.
The christian-union overhere always speaks about "christian-socialism" which irritates me as a christian. You can't base economical politics or social politics on christianity. People should not think that their political ideas are supported by Christ.

The dutch CDA (christian democratic) is centrist as well.

[Madjostok]

Yeah, I oversimplified there. I saw that all three parties in Britain are highly protective of the NHS. Thanks for all the answers, guys, this is very interesting!

WRT Obama's health plan: my own objection to it is largely budget-based. I believe we need to rid ourselves of our tendency to spend money we don't have, period. I think it might very well be nice to get healthcare reform; I understand U.S. healthcare is worse than just about any other Western country's despite our spending far more on it. I just think we need to wait until we can pay for it. And it seems the bill itself is a pretty lousy halfway measure due to all the compromises they made to get it through. The objections of others, of course, vary wildly.

Socialism: a somewhat overused and misused word, I know. I suppose I use it in two senses--that some of your governments have nationalized certain industries, and that you have high, leveling income taxes used to support strong social programs. That's my hazy recollection from HS government class. American opinions on the word are still strongly influenced by the long Cold War, which is why the GOP still use it, with varying success, as a word similar in tone to "treason." Plus American culture tends to put a strong emphasis on self-reliance and personal freedom, both of which are supposed to be undermined by a larger state.

Now, about hard nationalism and xenophobia in politics: over here, I think it's fair to say that if our political Right doesn't have a monopoly on it, it at least has a big share of the market. You don't hear too many Democrats agitating about immigrants ruining the American way of life with their wicked fajitas and pinatas. And Islam-bashing, while not as bad as it might be due to our fanatic reverence for the First Amendment, seems more popular among the GOP as well. Is it the same in Europe? I'm thinking of Sarkozy--isn't he part of the Socialist party?--and the headscarf ban supported by talk of "preserving French culture." I know Le Pen is in France's hard right; I don't know about that Geert fellow in the Dutch legislature.

[Worseacar]

Sarkozy was in the gaullist UMP before becoming pres, they count as conservative.

As for nationalism and xenophobia, a rather moderate form of national pride and flag-waving has made a certain comeback in Hermania after 1990, and would maybe fall under 'patriotism' in the US, but outright xenophobia is usually a big Nono here for most mainstream politicians. There were/are some examples for such positions in the conservative part of the CDU, but usually such stuff happens mostly at the far-right side (which stands here often for 'neo-nazi'). On the left side some criticism towards Israel's policy vs. the Palestinians is so broad-sweeping and hysteric that it can count as anti-semitic, but it's not the mainstream either.

People like the Dutch Geert Wilders or the earlier Austrian Haider are usually described as 'right-wing populist' in the Kraut media, which means depending on the POV of the source sometimes 'fascist', sometimes (in case of the Dutch guy) 'Islam-critic' and sometimes 'charismatic guy with simplistic views on stuff offering simplistic answers for probs'. They are a relatively new phenomenon and IMO seem to live mainly from the failure of mainstream politics to handle certain issues (like immigration/integration).

[CHEAPCIALISFORYOU]

The US is more US-conservative (read: liberal) than Europe economically (lower taxes, less business regulation). The US is also more liberal socially (gun laws, free speech). We are less liberal than Europe on gay rights; other than that, we allow greater social freedom.

This whole idea that the US is some stuffy old fart who never wants change and Europe is some Disney Land of personal freedoms is absolute BS. Europe is very authoritarian economically and is more authoritarian than the US on most social issues. This image of the US being ultra-conservative comes from 3 sources, mainly: lower taxes and regulations economically (as opposed to a nanny state), gay rights and capital punishment; however, this misses the forest for the trees.

[O25YtQnn]

Drug policy? We have as many places that pot is legal as Europe does. Note: pot is not technically legal in Amsterdam, and I've found that most of Europe is far more critical of smoking weed than the US (having lived there a couple years). This is especially true in Sweden, where pot is often viewed in the same light as coke.

Criminal justice? Death penalty, already addressed. Length of sentences is hardly a social freedom issue, but you have a minor point there.

Family policies? Do not lump nanny state economic authoritarianism into "social freedoms", m'kay?

Welfare state? I've already covered that under economics. High levels of taxation and regulation are authoritative.

[Terinalo]

Christian democrats are basically moderate.

In the USA they would be between dems and reps, more like dems in economic and welfare stuff, and more like republicans in gay marriage/abortion social stuff

[M1iFiNmC]

I'm not an idiot

I dispute this.

[RussellPG]

i wasn't talking about just pot, but all drugs. if i'd meant just pot, i would have said so. you have the whole war on drugs thing going on. have you heard about portugal? every drug is legal to use (although not to sell), which is about the most liberal place on the planet wrt drugs i think.

I don't believe that for one second. If it were real, people would be smoking and snorting in the streets and restaurants. If anything, it's a legal gimmick. The 'war on drugs' exists in Europe as much as it does the US. Spare me the BS legal gimmick exception to Europe's persecution of drug users. What's next, you claim that Europe doesn't subsidize farmers?


and it's not just what you mention either, you have to look at the numbers of prisoners in gaol too. the US has the highest number of prisoners per capita of any country (753 per 100,000), the highest european union countries are latvia and estonia (339 per 100,000) and the highest western eurpean country is spain (144 per 100,000). england and wales have 142 per 100,000 and we lock up far too many people.
These numbers mean little to nothing. With 12,000,000 illegal immigrants and better law enforcement, much of those numbers are meaningless. Your argument here is akin to making a life-span argument without noting descrepencies in parameters of child mortality.


i think you need to learn what social policy is to be honest. almost everything a government does has an economic effect, but that doesn't change the fact that things like maternity leave or unemployment benefit are essentially social in nature.
Trying to mix economic and social issues, at a sophomoric level, does not help to clarify the argument or arrive at any meaningful conclusions. Economically you assume what is best for people, and force it on them - no different than social conservatives.

Do you really think I want to sit around listening to the fundie inverse of "anti-drug policy is not a social issue, it is about keeping us all rich" BS? And I suppose being anti-gay rights is actually being pro-economic development... right? :rollie eyes:

[Dertrioz]

Decriminalized does not mean "legal". For not knowing that, you are an idiot.

And they only addressed one side, so that people could get clean needles. Our government gives away clean needles without any BS legislation.

And...

"Now instead of being put into prison, addicts are going to treatment centers and they're learning how to control their drug usage or getting off drugs entirely," report author Glenn Greenwald, a former New York State constitutional litigator, said during a press briefing at Cato last week.
I call BS on that.

[YTmWSOA5]

have you heard about portugal? every drug is legal to use

as for the rest of your post. **** you for making me agree with krazyhorse.

Who's the idiot now?

[anfuckinggs]

i said legal to use, not to sell, what exactly do you think that means? idiot.

What is consumption, if not "use"?

[Dyslermergerb]

It appears from the link you provided that it's a non-custodial offence. About as illegal as parking in the wrong place and receiving a fine.

[agildeta]

Medicinal use of the plant is already legal in a growing amount of countries, including Australia, Belgium, Canada, the Netherlands, and 13 states of the United States.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis


Also note, California (almost bigger than any Euro country, right?)...

Dec. 15 (Bloomberg) -- A ballot initiative to legalize recreational marijuana use in California has received enough signatures to place it before voters next year, organizers said.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aKNQlqjXCQ3w


Are any Euro countries voting on recreational use this year?