[padlabtard]

True, but how likely is that to change anytime soon?

[MontyP@thon]

Sure, we're stupid and inept, but that's because we don't have to prove anything like insecure colonials.

We could conquer the world (again) if we just got out of bed before noon, but we have nothing to prove. We're Europeans, the master race. *sips on a small cup of tar black coffee and lights up a cigarette*

[ambientambien]

The only European web browser is Opera, and it is terribly awful.

Wrong. Opera rocks.

[JasminBerkova]

Shipping Windows without one means users are restricted in their choice to whatever they have available on physical mediums already. Restricts choice!

Microsoft chose to restrict choice in this manner. It could have created an easy installer that put all major browsers on equal footing. But instead, Microsoft chose to inconvenience its customers.

[pooncophy]

Microsoft chose to restrict choice in this manner. It could have created an easy installer that put all major browsers on equal footing. But instead, Microsoft chose to inconvenience its customers.

It makes no sense to MS to take on this responsibility. Why should MS work with their competitors and decide who is or is not a major browser to include?

This is not even taking into account the Windows 7 code is on its way to release. Adding major new functionality like this would delay the product significantly and subject it to new rounds of testing.

They had two options: Write code and maintain lists/download sources for competitor's products and delay the release of Windows 7 to incorporate it to appease a retarded ruling by a retarded bureaucratic entity, or simply remove the browser from the EU release and let OEMs/people install whatever they want.

The latter is far more logical, especially considering the implications (legal and otherwise) of MS linking to sites they do not control from Windows. Consider:
- What happens if a user chooses Firefox during the WINDOWS INSTALL/SETUP and it encounters an issue. People will call MS support and ***** about it, by default. After all, to them, Windows installed it.
- What happens when the URL the tool points to is no longer valid or worse, for example...what happens if Opera's site is hacked and the .exe it downloads is a virus? What is MS' legal responsibility here?

If MS provided a sanctioned way to download their competitor's products, it opens them up to legal and technical issues they should not have to deal with it.

It's far better for them to remove IE from the OS and then point the finger squarely at the EU, which people are finding more and more to be a ridiculous overregulator.

PS: What browsers should they include? Opera, Safari, Firefox, Flock, K-Meleon, Mozilla, Chrome? In addition to being a confusing and complicating UI for most users who don't know or care about their browsers, it's an arbitrary list. There are hundreds of different browsers to install, who decides what is included or not?

[orerviche]

PS: What browsers should they include? Opera, Safari, Firefox, Flock, K-Meleon, Mozilla, Chrome? In addition to being a confusing and complicating UI for most users who don't know or care about their browsers, it's an arbitrary list. There are hundreds of different browsers to install, who decides what is included or not?

I think you're greatly exaggerating how tough it would be for Microsoft to do this. The list need not be arbitrary.

Fact is that since Microsoft has a monopoly in the OS, it is forbidden from using normal competitive business practices in adjacent markets. However, Microsoft is getting all pissy about it and thereby inconveniencing its customers.

[everlastinge]

I think you're greatly exaggerating how tough it would be for Microsoft to do this. The list need not be arbitrary. Then why shouldn't MS throw Firefox et. al. to the bottom of a dozens-long list? And if the EU complains about that, then the question is: do we really want to government to essentially legislate the current leaders to be the only "real" competitors?

[Amomiamup]

The EU is so ****ing clueless they don't even comprehend what the implications of their whole ruling is.

They just fined MS over a billion dollars for bundling WMP and IE with Windows. MS removes them and the EU still *****es and needs to decide if they want to fine them again.

Get ****ed, EU. Tools.

so wait:

the EU tells microsoft that it can't bundle IE and WMP with its OS, and then fines them.
the EU then wants to fine microsoft for not including them?

[popillio]

Then why shouldn't MS throw Firefox et. al. to the bottom of a dozens-long list? And if the EU complains about that, then the question is: do we really want to government to essentially legislate the current leaders to be the only "real" competitors?

I think you're making mountains out of molehills. It would take almost no effort for Microsoft to facilitate downloads and installation of the top dozen (or whatever) browsers, listed in random order.

[boiffrona]

I think you're making mountains out of molehills. It would take almost no effort for Microsoft to facilitate downloads and installation of the top dozen (or whatever) browsers, listed in random order.

I think you do not understand the software development and testing process.

I think you do not understand the legal process.

You are asking MS to add another testing cycle to a product with testing cycles that last around six months. You're asking MS to alter a product that's been code complete for months already. This will incur a delay of at least 8 months in its release if it is to be tested. Just stop for a minute and think about the implications of fundamentally changing the install process. Not only the testing, but localization in over one hundred languages and legal clearance for its actions in over a hundred country's various laws. Documentation would also need to be updated and translated as well. This is not a simple task.

Further still, you are asking MS to maintain a list of competitors browsers and download sources, and then write code that implicitly trusts code hosted on OTHER SERVERS they do not control...and more importantly servers controlled by their competitors, and install that blindly on new Windows installs. This is legally, and technically, dangerous.

[Ivanaishere]

As history has shown, Europeans are both technologically inept and massively stupid.

You're out of line Asher. Europeans invented the browser along with the WWW. Without us, you'd be trolling mailing lists instead of forums.

[Endatrybeeddy]

You guys are showing why Europe is on a steep decline.

yes. this is ****ing stupid, every EU-area citizen gets to pay the same for a neutered product. there's no reason to blame microsoft for this, they're doing exactly what the european parliament has required them to do

[Sxedlawb]

You're out of line Asher. Europeans invented the browser along with the WWW. Without us, you'd be trolling mailing lists instead of forums.

Your a goddamn lying Belgian. Al Gore invented those things.

[brilkyPlayday]

You're way exaggerating. First off, we're talking about just the EU, not the rest of the countries in the UN.

This doesn't matter at all.

Secondly, we're talking about a separate installation package just to download and boot the browsers' installation package. This makes no sense. How does this package magically get onto the computer if it is not installed?

Lastly, the cost of maintaining a list of competitors and facilitating installation of their software is just the cost of doing business as a monopoly. They're not a monopoly, as Apple's ads clearly indicate.

We've all been over this before. IE's marketshare is in rapid decline, all of the comments about IE being unstoppable and unfairly bundled were made by epic retards and I was very clear about that years ago when they said it. Build a better browser, and people will use it...they did.

I'm calling you out on this, Dan. You can continue arguing with me on this if you wish but it's be fruitless as you're completely wrong and out of your comfort zone in arguing about software development procedures.

Anything that alters the installation of Windows at this point WILL DELAY THE OS SIGNIFICANTLY. You do not seem to comprehend the legal headaches there are associated with MS linking to sites they do not control to install apps they did not write and can't predict what they'll be. Not to mention the issues of putting this through another test cycle and getting this translated and the updated documentation.

It is a herculean effort to put in a huge release of Windows and that's precisely why there's a 6 month delay between Code Complete/RTM and actual release. The last new features to Windows 7 were completed half a year ago at this point! And you're not even talking about simply adding a feature, you want something to be designed, implemented, tested, coordinated with all of the various makers, legal hurdles cleared, translations done, documentation updated, then tens of millions of discs manufacturers and OEMs updated with the latest procedures so they can build and test their images prior to the Windows 7 launch.

This is not a tiny thing! It's massive.

[TSVIDeo]

- TBL's nationality is English, he is not part of the EU nor is he European

The UK is in the EU. Nobody knows why, but they're in.

[geaveheadeNox]

Sorry, Asher. According to the US legal system, Microsoft has been declared a monopoly in OS. IE's market share is immaterial to this discussion. Microsoft is using its monopoly position in OS to put its hand on the scales in the browser market. That's illegal. Microsoft should have been crushed by the Bush administration on this score, but the Bush administration just loved them some monopoly. So now the EU is doing the right thing.

They've got 5 months until release. Time to get cracking on implementing the installer. The installer can be part of the first OS update if they don't want to reopen the main release.

[Lolita Palmer]

They've got 5 months until release. Time to get cracking on implementing the installer. The installer can be part of the first OS update if they don't want to reopen the main release.

This is ****ing retarded. There's already a browser installer on Windows releases. It's called "IE".