[CreativeSuiteDown]

Microsoft pre installs IE in every single one of it's operating systems, conveniently calling its own browser an essential "Windows component." Yes porn is important but so is choice, perhaps you should at least have the choice right Asher? To hell with you and your double standards, you are like the pit in my olive.

[excholza]

As a general rule I don't download anything from Apple. Ever since I tried Quicktime and found out it tried to take over EVERY music and video file on my computer I just haven't had faith in Apple products.

[RadcliffXX]

Typical Apple

[ananciguinter]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
Microsoft pre installs IE in every single one of it's operating systems, conveniently calling its own browser an essential "Windows component." Yes porn is important but so is choice, perhaps you should at least have the choice right Asher? To hell with you and your double standards, you are like the pit in my olive. There are reasons for IE (and Webkit/Safari) to ship with the OS and be integrated as they are.

This does not qualify for any of the reasons.

[QysnZWB4]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
...you are like the pit in my olive.

[Ygxejxox]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
Microsoft pre installs IE in every single one of it's operating systems, conveniently calling its own browser an essential "Windows component." Yes porn is important but so is choice, perhaps you should at least have the choice right Asher? To hell with you and your double standards, you are like the pit in my olive. And good idea too, I wouldn't know how the hell to download FF after I format this machine.

Its not like I have to pay for it anyways...

[DoctorBeny]

It's not the same at all. You don't need iTunes like you need Windows. And Apple is offering a choice with iTunes; MS offers no choice of browser with its OS, please review your facts prior to making a post.

And good idea too, I wouldn't know how the hell to download FF after I format this machine.

Its not like I have to pay for it anyways... They can include both, it's not like it's hard.

[vladekad]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
It's not the same at all. You don't need iTunes like you need Windows. Nor do you need Safari. MS bunded IE (that, at the time, nobody used) with a product a lot of people used (Windows). Apple is bundling Safari (that, now, nobody uses) with a product that a lot of people use (Itunes).

And Apple is offering a choice with iTunes It downloaded automagically for me and DanS. No warning. People want a browser when they get an operating system. People don't want a browser when they upgrade their music player.

MS offers no choice of browser with its OS Of course not, since you can choose to download another one.

please eview your facts prior to making a post. I will not retract my statement.

[HsSp82U8]

When i got my new computer, I tried to get to Mozilla dot org, it would not allow me, so I had get Netscape first and then I wass able to get to mozilla. It was frustrating that happened. I would never need IE.

[snislarne]

MS bundling IE is not a problem. MS making IE un-removable or virtually so was a problem

Apple offering downloads of Safari via Apple Updater is not a problem. Apple implying it is an upgrade of a software you already has is a problem.

[pharmablogger]

Hmm. Suppose I'll continue to ignore both and use Firefox.

[snislarne]

Originally posted by snoopy369
MS bundling IE is not a problem. MS making IE un-removable or virtually so was a problem

Apple offering downloads of Safari via Apple Updater is not a problem. Apple implying it is an upgrade of a software you already has is a problem. Yep, I also thought it would just be a normal update für my iTunes and suddenly I have Safari on my PC.
Not that I mind it too much, after all it does no harm to me to have Safari on it (although it won´t make me switch from FF to Safari ) but it was a surprise nevertheless

[Snuddyentaine]

Safari on OS X kind of sucks. I get random crashes and it's know surprisingly resource intensive after an update back in January. I switched to Firefox for OS X. While, it's not perfect at least it's not chugging so many CPU processes and eating up an insane amount of memory that it forces the fans to run full blast.

[tramadoldiscountes]

Wiglaf:

OS and browser bundling makes sense. It is important for the programs to have access to a rendering engine built into the OS. On OS X, this is Webkit (which is used by Safari). In Windows, this is Trident (which is used by IE). In Linux, this is either Gecko or Webkit/KHTML depending on the environment. In addition, it's important to give users the vehicle of choice so they can download any browser they choose.

There is absolutely no technical nor use-case reason for iTunes to be forcing Safari out as an "update" to users who have never used it before. The entire purpose of this is a desperate attempt at stealing userbase since no one is using Safari on Windows.

And make no mistake (Agathon particular), owning the web platform is huge. There's no direct profits out of it, but it's very important from a posturing and branding perspective.

And this decision was not a spur of the moment thing or a mistake or made by someone low level...Steve Jobs himself told everyone he would do this last year to "get Safari to Windows users".

There's no way to defend this practice, no one benefits out of this except Apple -- even that is backfiring, a lot of people are pissed off about this.

The forced bundling of QT/iTunes already pissed me off, but there is a reason for this -- iTunes calls QuickTime to actually play the media. They need to coexist. This is not the case with Safari and iTunes.

The wording of this being an "upgrade" to someone who has never installed it is confusing to most users. Most users blindly hit "yes" to any "update" prompts, which is precisely what Apple is counting on here. If people actually wanted to install Safari, they could get it from the site. The whole purpose behind this move is to trick people into using it.

[olivelappers]

OS and browser bundling makes sense. It is important for the programs to have access to a rendering engine built into the OS. On OS X, this is Webkit (which is used by Safari). In Windows, this is Trident (which is used by IE). In Linux, this is either Gecko or Webkit/KHTML depending on the environment. This is quite a tangent. There is of course a reason to have a browser with the OS, but nothing stopping the inclusion of other browsers as well.

There is absolutely no technical nor use-case reason for iTunes to be forcing Safari out as an "update" to users who have never used it before. The entire purpose of this is a desperate attempt at stealing userbase since no one is using Safari on Windows. You seem to be confusing iTunes with Apple Software Update. The updater says 'Searching for new software' when it starts up, produces Safari 3.1, and explains that it is a fast web browser. Because the download is not automatic there is no 'forcing it' here.

The wording of this being an "upgrade" to someone who has never installed it is confusing to most users. Most users blindly hit "yes" to any "update" prompts, which is precisely what Apple is counting on here. If people actually wanted to install Safari, they could get it from the site. The whole purpose behind this move is to trick people into using it. The whole reason IE is bundled with XP is to convince millions of people that IE is basically the only way to browse the web. Apple's stepping up to and probably a little over the line here, but it is insane to say microsoft doesn't do far worse with each copy of XP it distributes.

[EmpaccalGah]

Originally posted by Asher
The CEO of Mozilla steps in:
So, basically, people are upset over a checkbox already being checked?

Kinda sleazy, but anyone who doesn't actually read what updates they are getting, and confirm they want said update, probably don't care that they suddenly have a new web browser they will never use.

ACK!

[perhilzit]

Originally posted by Tuberski


So, basically, people are upset over a checkbox already being checked?

Kinda sleazy, but anyone who doesn't actually read what updates they are getting, and confirm they want said update, probably don't care that they suddenly have a new web browser they will never use.

ACK!
Tuberski

[Txaizdxx]

Originally posted by Tuberski
So, basically, people are upset over a checkbox already being checked? A combination of it being defaulted to download when it essentially works as a random popup on your computer when you're usually busy doing something (so most users click click click to get it out of the way and back to their work). The other major problem is it's positioned as an update to software the users already have. It's trying to trick them into downloading it by either confusion or by virtue of the fact that most users just want to get back to their work and not read Apple's generally useless comments in the description (Most are 'Fixes bugs').

[Taunteefrurge]

I am not aware of anyone forcing one and only one browser on an OS. And I'm not aware of Apple forcing Safari on anyone.

Wasn't sure anyone was arguing this, but by virtue of the fact that Firefox's usage continues to skyrocket at the expense of IE -- and the fact that the vast majority of people acquire FF by using IE to download it -- I'd say you're wrong here. Firefox is clearly superior but commands only a fraction of the marketshare.

[shodulsilfeli]

Originally posted by Wiglaf
And I'm not aware of Apple forcing Safari on anyone. You're either channeling Agathon's stupidity in not comprehending, or you're being obtuse.

I've already said this many times. You're clearly not aware of the concept of social engineering and how you can design dialogs in such a way to make users do things they probably don't want to do. It's not a "forced" bundling in layman's terms, but it relies on fundamental dishonesty and trickery to get the job done. Both are equally despicable.

Firefox is clearly superior but commands only a fraction of the marketshare. It went from 0% to 17% (300 million downloads) in only a few years, and is still on the rise. Obviously, people have choice. Choice that is -- amazingly enough -- enabled by having a default OS browser that is used to acquire others.