[VawSwaspamups]

A rebuttal of sorts:

Laws of Nature, Source Unknown
By DENNIS OVERBYE

Correction Appended

“Gravity,” goes the slogan on posters and bumper stickers. “It isn’t just a good idea. It’s the law.”

And what a law. Unlike, say, traffic or drug laws, you don’t have a choice about obeying gravity or any of the other laws of physics. Jump and you will come back down. Faith or good intentions have nothing to do with it.

Existence didn’t have to be that way, as Einstein reminded us when he said, “The most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible.” Against all the odds, we can send e-mail to Sri Lanka, thread spacecraft through the rings of Saturn, take a pill to chase the inky tendrils of depression, bake a turkey or a soufflé and bury a jump shot from the corner.

Yes, it’s a lawful universe. But what kind of laws are these, anyway, that might be inscribed on a T-shirt but apparently not on any stone tablet that we have ever been able to find?

Are they merely fancy bookkeeping, a way of organizing facts about the world? Do they govern nature or just describe it? And does it matter that we don’t know and that most scientists don’t seem to know or care where they come from?

Apparently it does matter, judging from the reaction to a recent article by Paul Davies, a cosmologist at Arizona State University and author of popular science books, on the Op-Ed page of The New York Times.

Dr. Davies asserted in the article that science, not unlike religion, rested on faith, not in God but in the idea of an orderly universe. Without that presumption a scientist could not function. His argument provoked an avalanche of blog commentary, articles on Edge.org and letters to The Times, pointing out that the order we perceive in nature has been explored and tested for more than 2,000 years by observation and experimentation. That order is precisely the hypothesis that the scientific enterprise is engaged in testing.

David J. Gross, director of the Kavli Institute for Theoretical Physics in Santa Barbara, Calif., and co-winner of the Nobel Prize in physics, told me in an e-mail message, “I have more confidence in the methods of science, based on the amazing record of science and its ability over the centuries to answer unanswerable questions, than I do in the methods of faith (what are they?).”

Reached by e-mail, Dr. Davies acknowledged that his mailbox was “overflowing with vitriol,” but said he had been misunderstood. What he had wanted to challenge, he said, was not the existence of laws, but the conventional thinking about their source.

There is in fact a kind of chicken-and-egg problem with the universe and its laws. Which “came” first — the laws or the universe?

If the laws of physics are to have any sticking power at all, to be real laws, one could argue, they have to be good anywhere and at any time, including the Big Bang, the putative Creation. Which gives them a kind of transcendent status outside of space and time.

On the other hand, many thinkers — all the way back to Augustine — suspect that space and time, being attributes of this existence, came into being along with the universe — in the Big Bang, in modern vernacular. So why not the laws themselves?

Dr. Davies complains that the traditional view of transcendent laws is just 17th-century monotheism without God. “Then God got killed off and the laws just free-floated in a conceptual vacuum but retained their theological properties,” he said in his e-mail message.

But the idea of rationality in the cosmos has long existed without monotheism. As far back as the fifth century B.C. the Greek mathematician and philosopher Pythagoras and his followers proclaimed that nature was numbers. Plato envisioned a higher realm of ideal forms, of perfect chairs, circles or galaxies, of which the phenomena of the sensible world were just flawed reflections. Plato set a transcendent tone that has been popular, especially with mathematicians and theoretical physicists, ever since.

Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate from the University of Texas, Austin, described himself in an e-mail message as “pretty Platonist,” saying he thinks the laws of nature are as real as “the rocks in the field.” The laws seem to persist, he wrote, “whatever the circumstance of how I look at them, and they are things about which it is possible to be wrong, as when I stub my toe on a rock I had not noticed.”

The ultimate Platonist these days is Max Tegmark, a cosmologist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. In talks and papers recently he has speculated that mathematics does not describe the universe — it is the universe.

Dr. Tegmark maintains that we are part of a mathematical structure, albeit one gorgeously more complicated than a hexagon, a multiplication table or even the multidimensional symmetries that describe modern particle physics. Other mathematical structures, he predicts, exist as their own universes in a sort of cosmic Pythagorean democracy, although not all of them would necessarily prove to be as rich as our own.

“Everything in our world is purely mathematical — including you,” he wrote in New Scientist.

This would explain why math works so well in describing the cosmos. It also suggests an answer to the question that Stephen Hawking, the English cosmologist, asked in his book, “A Brief History of Time”: “What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe?” Mathematics itself is on fire.

Not every physicist pledges allegiance to Plato. Pressed, these scientists will describe the laws more pragmatically as a kind of shorthand for nature’s regularity. Sean Carroll, a cosmologist at the California Institute of Technology, put it this way: “A law of physics is a pattern that nature obeys without exception.”

Plato and the whole idea of an independent reality, moreover, took a shot to the mouth in the 1920s with the advent of quantum mechanics. According to that weird theory, which, among other things, explains why our computers turn on every morning, there is an irreducible randomness at the microscopic heart of reality that leaves an elementary particle, an electron, say, in a sort of fog of being everywhere or anywhere, or being a wave or a particle, until some measurement fixes it in place.

In that case, according to the standard interpretation of the subject, physics is not about the world at all, but about only the outcomes of experiments, of our clumsy interactions with that world. But 75 years later, those are still fighting words. Einstein grumbled about God not playing dice.

Steven Weinstein, a philosopher of science at the University of Waterloo, in Ontario, termed the phrase “law of nature” as “a kind of honorific” bestowed on principles that seem suitably general, useful and deep. How general and deep the laws really are, he said, is partly up to nature and partly up to us, since we are the ones who have to use them.

But perhaps, as Dr. Davies complains, Plato is really dead and there are no timeless laws or truths. A handful of poet-physicists harkening for more contingent nonabsolutist laws not engraved in stone have tried to come up with prescriptions for what John Wheeler, a physicist from Princeton and the University of Texas in Austin, called “law without law.”

As one example, Lee Smolin, a physicist at the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics, has invented a theory in which the laws of nature change with time. It envisions universes nested like Russian dolls inside black holes, which are spawned with slightly different characteristics each time around. But his theory lacks a meta law that would prescribe how and why the laws change from generation to generation.

Holger Bech Nielsen, a Danish physicist at the Niels Bohr Institute in Copenhagen, and one of the early pioneers of string theory, has for a long time pursued a project he calls Random Dynamics, which tries to show how the laws of physics could evolve naturally from a more general notion he calls “world machinery.”

On his Web site, Random Dynamics, he writes, “The ambition of Random Dynamics is to ‘derive’ all the known physical laws as an almost unavoidable consequence of a random fundamental ‘world machinery.’”

Dr. Wheeler has suggested that the laws of nature could emerge “higgledy-piggledy” from primordial chaos, perhaps as a result of quantum uncertainty. It’s a notion known as “it from bit.” Following that logic, some physicists have suggested we should be looking not so much for the ultimate law as for the ultimate program.

Anton Zeilinger, a physicist and quantum trickster at the University of Vienna, and a fan of Dr. Wheeler’s idea, has speculated that reality is ultimately composed of information. He said recently that he suspected the universe was fundamentally unpredictable.

I love this idea of intrinsic randomness much for the same reason that I love the idea of natural selection in biology, because it and only it ensures that every possibility will be tried, every circumstance tested, every niche inhabited, every escape hatch explored. It’s a prescription for novelty, and what more could you ask for if you want to hatch a fecund universe?

But too much fecundity can be a problem. Einstein hoped that the universe was unique: given a few deep principles, there would be only one consistent theory. So far Einstein’s dream has not been fulfilled. Cosmologists and physicists have recently found themselves confronted by the idea of the multiverse, with zillions of universes, each with different laws, occupying a vast realm known in the trade as the landscape.

In this case there is meta law — one law or equation, perhaps printable on a T-shirt — to rule them all. This prospective lord of the laws would be string theory, the alleged theory of everything, which apparently has 10500 solutions. Call it Einstein’s nightmare.

But it is soon for any Einsteinian to throw in his or her hand. Since cosmologists don’t know how the universe came into being, or even have a convincing theory, they have no way of addressing the conundrum of where the laws of nature come from or whether those laws are unique and inevitable or flaky as a leaf in the wind.

These kinds of speculation are fun, but they are not science, yet. “Philosophy of science is about as useful to scientists as ornithology is to birds,” goes the saying attributed to Richard Feynman, the late Caltech Nobelist, and repeated by Dr. Weinberg.

Maybe both alternatives — Plato’s eternal stone tablet and Dr. Wheeler’s higgledy-piggledy process — will somehow turn out to be true. The dichotomy between forever and emergent might turn out to be as false eventually as the dichotomy between waves and particles as a description of light. Who knows?

The law of no law, of course, is still a law.

When I was young and still had all my brain cells I was a bridge fan, and one hand I once read about in the newspaper bridge column has stuck with me as a good metaphor for the plight of the scientist, or of the citizen cosmologist. The winning bidder had overbid his hand. When the dummy cards were laid, he realized that his only chance of making his contract was if his opponents’ cards were distributed just so.

He could have played defensively, to minimize his losses. Instead he played as if the cards were where they had to be. And he won.

We don’t know, and might never know, if science has overbid its hand. When in doubt, confronted with the complexities of the world, scientists have no choice but to play their cards as if they can win, as if the universe is indeed comprehensible. That is what they have been doing for more than 2,000 years, and they are still winning.

Correction: December 19, 2007

An article in Science Times on Tuesday about the laws of physics and nature misstated the time in which Plato was forming his idea of a higher realm of ideal forms. It was in the fourth century B.C.; it was not “a few hundred years” after the fifth century B.C., when the Greek mathematician and philosopher Pythagoras and his followers proclaimed that nature was numbers.

[bettingonosports]

This is something I've said for sometime, hence the word: aetheist.

[AncewwewBus]

If you want to understand the world, understand buddhism.

Buddhism basically supports the "it's fundamentally reasonless" view, along with the guarantee that you WILL go mad if you think about it too hard. If you wish to have all the sanity that it is possible to have, you do well to not seek reason in the reasonless.

[SpecialOFFER]

Atheism is a religion also most certainly

I feel that science in some ways is a religion, in that many people accept the modern tenets of science on faith because they don't have the knowledge or ability to comprehend the actual science behind it. The complexity of scientific understanding, combined with the general lack of ability to communicate on the part of most scientists (those of you who date scientists will know what i'm talking about ) mean that the 'common person' is generally both unable to determine the validity of scientific statements themselves, and very much at risk of being 'converted' by a rogue 'scientist' who is able to communicate but does not necessarily tell the truth (Kevin "Natural Cures" Trudeau, anyone?).

Solution:
1) Greater dissemination of the ability to judge the validity of scientific theories. This includes a) a greater understanding of the underpinnings of science, which is taught in high school but often is too specific, and taught poorly such that kids don't actually learn it (GIGO), and b) teaching directly how a scientific theory should be judged - both how to identify a valid theory (ie doesn't claim what it can't prove) and how to parse the theory into what it actually is saying.
2) Teach scientists how to write/speak to the People, and teach that it is IMPORTANT. Many scientists are unable to converse without jargon to the point that they actually don't know what the jargon means in plain english - which tells me they don't know what it means at all (or that they don't know english...) Richard Dawkins was a good start, but that needs to be EVERY scientist, or at least a good portion of them.

[Auzuigcx]

Originally posted by snoopy369


This is largely true, except in that science is the attempt to study the reasons behind those beliefs and tear them down into the smallest bits possible, while religion (or at least western religion, ie christianity) considers the beliefs truly fundamental and does not seek to discover the reasons for those beliefs, only the corollaries as a result of said beliefs. Not necessarily. Modern science evolved from changes in attitude toward religion. There was a movement away from blind faith toward a more rationale and philosophical explanation of faith. It's the trend back to blind faith (especially strong here in America) that is disturbing. I blame the inevitable degradation of protestantism.

[Adamanta]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
(for most an example is "God exists" which is like this, and yes Blake, I know that for buddism this isn't true). Isn't for sure, for buddhism, it isn't for sure.

I mean, God might exist, but it isn't for sure.

[CtEkM8Vq]

By the way, I don't consider what some of the people quoted in the second article to be doing as science. String theory is very questionable as far as science goes right now (it is much closer to physically inspired mathematics then physics) and those guys like going beyond that.

Jon Miller

[Podborodok]

Originally posted by DaShi


Not necessarily. Modern science evolved from changes in attitude toward religion. There was a movement away from blind faith toward a more rationale and philosophical explanation of faith. It's the trend back to blind faith (especially strong here in America) that is disturbing. I blame the inevitable degradation of protestantism. Yes, except that there are core elements that cannot be questioned - 'is there a god', 'was Jesus Christ the savior', etc. Those must be - by definition - taken on faith. The bible goes into detail on this - Jesus explicitly states that you must believe, on faith, in him. Admittedly that was probably added post-fact (even if anything was true of the bible, of course) by the writers of the gospel(s), but ... point is, you must take some of it on faith no matter how much you 'question'.

[Metalhead]

I propose that we abolish the notion of "natural law". It's so 18th century. Instead we should refer to the regular relationships of nature as "properties" - of gravity, of thermodynamics, of genetics, and etc., etc.

[jimmy28]

Originally posted by Zoid
I refuse to accept that there is no reason behind the universe. If there isn't any reason, what's the point of being here? Things don't just happen, they happen for a reason. We may not understand that reason yet, but we're getting there. Throughout human history man has searched for the meaning of life and existence. Why are things the way they are and not the other way around? Now you could handle this by saying that it's fundamentally reasonless, but I think that's a cop-out. We have an obligation to ourselves to strive for knowledge. What is the point of there being a reason? Does it really change anything for there to be a meaning, or not? Will the earth stop spinning around the sun, or will plants stop photosynthsizing if it turns out there is no reason or meaning to any of it?

[metropropuskruww]

Originally posted by snoopy369


I would suggest you mean organized religion. Many religions are not organized... and atheism is most certainly a set of beliefs (which is one definition of religion). No, that is PART of one definiton of religion.

Here are a few defintions:

re·li·gion (rĭ-lĭj'ən) Pronunciation Key
n.

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

re·li·gion /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ri-lij-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic. religious rites.
8. Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.
—Idiom

and the Etymology:
Online Etymology Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This
religion

c.1200, "state of life bound by monastic vows," also "conduct indicating a belief in a divine power," from Anglo-Fr. religiun (11c.), from O.Fr. religion "religious community," from L. religionem (nom. religio) "respect for what is sacred, reverence for the gods," in L.L. "monastic life" (5c.); according to Cicero, derived from relegare "go through again, read again," from re- "again" + legere "read" (see lecture). However, popular etymology among the later ancients (and many modern writers) connects it with religare "to bind fast" (see rely), via notion of "place an obligation on," or "bond between humans and gods." Another possible origin is religiens "careful," opposite of negligens. Meaning "particular system of faith" is recorded from c.1300.

[triardwonvada]

Well. I do understand the guy's point, but there are differences between faith and science. Not that they are mutually exclusive, they aren't, but you still can't call science faith either.

[12Cickprior]

Originally posted by GePap
I am sick of people saying "Atheism is a religion."

No one ever says "Polytheism is a religion" or "Monotheism is a religion", so why then **** is saying "Atheism is a religion" any less nonsensical??

A belief (ie. dieties do not exist) is not " a set of beliefs", it is just one, singular, belief.

It would be possible to have an Atheistic religion, but Atheism in an of itself is no more a religion than Polytheism or Monotheism by themselves. Please create your own thread to argue semantics. It's just sad to see it here.

[jenilopaz]

Originally posted by Zkribbler


Atheism is a religion in which Nothing is sacred.

0 = Good point Zkribbler!

[rowneigerie]

Np +1

[jamemeveRhype]

One difference between most of natural science and religious faith IMHO is, that theories in natural science normally are based on reproducable experiments.

If you find out that under certain physical conditions a metal ball accelerates with 9.81 m/s² towards earth, you can be sure that you can get the same results if you reproduce te experiment under the same conditions (otherwise the theory can be falsified).

Not so for the works of the bible/Toah/Quran. for example, which normally aren´t reproducable (or even contradict observations, like for example fossil founds or just rational thinking)

I absolutely agree that when science asks why the natural laws are like they are (or what was before big bang) then it enters the dominion of religion, although this has to be a religions that has more in common with buddhism (which Blake already mentioned) than with any of the Abrahamix religions.

[QEoMi752]

Originally posted by Zoid
I refuse to accept that there is no reason behind the universe. If there isn't any reason, what's the point of being here? Things don't just happen, they happen for a reason. We may not understand that reason yet, but we're getting there. Throughout human history man has searched for the meaning of life and existence. Why are things the way they are and not the other way around? Now you could handle this by saying that it's fundamentally reasonless, but I think that's a cop-out. We have an obligation to ourselves to strive for knowledge. Yeah... but what if there actually is no reason behind the universe?

I've always supported the "Life is a cosmic accident" theory. To me that makes much more sense than there being a reason behind it.

I mean what reason could there be behind some molecules starting to self-reproduce?

Life did just fine for many billions of years without reasons, reasons are a purely human invention (although any sentient could invent them, nothing special about humans).

Just as man created god and not vice-verca, man created reason and not vice-verca.

It's really not that hard to understand.

“Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated.”
--Confucius

[STYWOMBORGOSY]

But there's no sustenance in it .

[loolitoertego]

No one ever says "Polytheism is a religion" or "Monotheism is a religion", so why then **** is saying "Atheism is a religion" any less nonsensical??

A belief (ie. dieties do not exist) is not " a set of beliefs", it is just one, singular, belief.

It would be possible to have an Atheistic religion, but Atheism in an of itself is no more a religion than Polytheism or Monotheism by themselves. Good point.

We should separate the Marxist religion from the Darwinist religion, and both are different from the Neitzche religion.

[RotsLoado]

Really, it's a description of what happens.

Of course the word "Law" or "Rule" has a dual meaning. Traditionally it means "This is what you must do, otherwise you risk punishment", while scientifically it means "This is what XYZ is like".

Things fall, that is what gravity is like.