[xanonlinexan]

Thank you for that quote Evan. I love that piece by St. John.

Kosta, I was wondering if you or anyone else had any articles on the mosaic geometric patterns and mosaic designs in mosques being really created by hired, greek, coptic, armenian and serbian artisans?

More on topic, does anyone else have any other patristic writings on this topic?

Here is an excerpt from the website sacred-destinations.com. It gives the history of the building of the 'Prophets Mosque' in Medina. It is the second holiest site in Islam:
'This mosque was 84 by 100 meters in size, with stone foundations and a teak roof supported on stone columns. The mosque walls were decorated with mosaics by Coptic and Greek craftsmen, similar to those seen in the Umayyad mosque in Damascus and the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem (built by the same caliph). The courtyard was surrounded by a gallery on four sides, with four minarets on its corners. A mihrab topped by a small dome was built on the qibla wall...'

Sinan the greatest turkish architect ever was either of serbian or greek descent, he built most of the mosques in Instanbul: There are two accounts of his early biography. One from a christian point of view which says Sinan was an Orthodox christian who learned his trade from his father. At age 21 he was taken as a janissery. Another from a muslim point of view says that Sinan's father was an Orthodox christian who converted to Islam and taught his son the trade of carpentry, at age of 21 Sinan was recruited by the Devsirme into the janniseries.

Can there be any doubt? Even the muslim account of Sinans life that tries to cover up the truth admits he was taken as a jannisery! Thus his Orthodox father taught him architecture, and by age 21 was forced into the janisseries. It is the muslim account which admits he was a victim of the devsirme! These accounts are found in muslimheritage.com

Here is some excerpts about the dome of the rock mosque from sacredsites.com
'Often incorrectly called the Mosque of Umar, the Dome of the Rock, known in Arabic as Qubbat As-Sakhrah, is not a mosque for public worship but rather a mashhad, a shrine for pilgrims. Adjacent to the Dome is the Al-Aqsa Mosque wherein Muslims make their prayers. Designed by Byzantine architects engaged by the Caliph, the Dome of the Rock was the greatest monumental building in early Islamic history and remains today one of the most sublime examples of artistic genius that humanity has ever produced (the Great Mosque of Damascus, being a true mosque, is the earliest surviving monumental mosque).....
The Dome of the Rock, while certainly one of the world's great architectural masterpieces, is often incorrectly understood to be an Islamic creation. Writing about the non-Islamic influences on the architectural style of the Dome, the author of Muslim Religious Architecture, Dogan Kuban, comments that,

"Art historians have kept up an unceasing flow of studies of the Dome of the Rock. In the context of Islamic architecture it remains unique, but in that of Roman architecture its form is directly in line with the late tradition in Syria. All of its important features, from the interior double colonnades to the great wooden dome, have been shown to be faithful reproductions of features of the Cathedral of Bosra in southern Syria. Its well-known mosaic decoration is Islamic only in the sense that the vocabulary is syncretic and does not include representation of men or animals. The entire building might be viewed as the last blossoming of the Hellenistic tradition before the Islamic synthesis created its own formulas."

Here is what is said of the bbuilders of the Great Mosque of Damascus in Syria:

'In 706 al-Walid, the sixth Ummayad caliph, demolished the church and constructed a mosque along the southern wall of the Roman temenos. Using thousands of craftsmen of Coptic, Persian, Indian and Greek origin, the construction took ten years to complete and included a prayer hall, a vast courtyard and hundreds of rooms for visiting pilgrims. The triple ailed prayer hall, roughly 160 meters long, was covered with a tiled wooden roof and supported on reused columns taken from Roman temples in the region as well as the Church of Mary at Antioch (a similar practice yielded columns for the mosque of Kairouan in Tunisia).'

So much for the myth of the brilliant arab mathematicians that the westerners brainwash their children into believing.



:

[UriDepkeeks]

A reminder: posts in this thread need to be on the patristic testimony to this religion, not simply on Islam itself or political matters. Please do not post materials that go beyond the stated scope of this forum and thread.

[tabcdyop]

The Optina monastery (an Orthodox monastery near Kozelsk in Russia) in the 19th century became the most important spiritual centre of the Russian Orthodox Church. It was particularly renowned as the centre of Russian staretsdom. One of the famous elders who lived there was starets Anatoly Turka (turka is an informal Russian word for a Turk). As you may guess in the begining of his career Anatoly was a muslim. After his own words - a strict follower of muslim doctrines and culture. He was a commissioned officer in the Turkish army and participated in a military campaign against Russian troops. We do not know when and how the Grace of God touched his heart but somehow after his captivity and imprisonment he was baptized an Orthodox Christian and became a monk and later a famous Russian starets possessing exclusive spirituality. He loved Russian Orthodox people coming to his monastic cell but he also loved Turkish people and prayed God to reveal to the followers of Muhammed the danger of their cult. Three months before his death Anatoly had clearly seen in a vision the hell with the most dangerous entity ever to threaten mankind - the evil one - with Juda Iskariot and Muhammed in his lap; all the three filled with hatred.That is the truth about Muhammed's place.

I read this story in a book written (in Russian) by an Orthodox spiritual writer Sergei Nilus who lived in Optina at that time.

[Mereebirl]

What amazes me is why criticism of Islam is labelled 'racism'. Islam is not a race, it is a religion. Muslims are not a race, they are a religious community which consists of members of all races. I think this is a very bad case of word manipulation for political (or politico-religious) ends.

[bapimporb]

I criticize Islam and their strict adherents. I call Muhammed what he is, the greatest anti-christ that has ever lived. And i dont feel guilty. Perhaps it is the 'muslim' in me, my great great grandfather on my mom's side was a muslim. Ofcourse he converted back to Orthodox christianity, changed his first and last name to be christian and greek, and when the population swap came, he bid his muslim family good riddance. It was the best thing my great great grandfather ever did.

[ppfpooghn]

'Saudi Arabia officially bans the public practice of any religion other than Islam.'
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle...378554467.html


Saturday, March 17th, 2012
“In February, the newly formed al-Adala (Justice) Bloc introduced legislation to remove Christian churches from Kuwait and impose Islamic law, or Shariah. Party officials said later the legislation would not remove the churches but prohibit further construction of Christian churches and non-Muslim places of worship in the country,” Catholic News Service reports.

Remember what happened in Kosovo?


Lest we forget.

Perhaps other countries need 500 years of occupation by Islam to be afraid of it.

[+++Poguru+++]

Unfortunately Effie it wont help. Most westerners hate religion, infact they hate their very own decendants for being religious and have a self hating guilt conscious over it. Westerners today are content with having no holidays, no customs and nothing of value to pass down to their children. They are so void of any culture, that halloween has become their only adult holiday and having a barbeque on memorial day or whatever other patriotic holiday is the height of the year, well that and getting drunk on New Years Eve.

[GaxyGroordrep]

I believe that the problem of the West (including Russia and countries of eastern Europe which are now the West's backyard) is not too much Islam, but too little Christianity. DeChristianisation has left a spiritual void in the West. As nature abhors the void, it sucks in all sorts of spiritual surrogates - Islam, Hare Krishna, Moonism, occultism, satanism, neo-paganism, Wicca... Islam may not be the best among all those surrogates, but it is not the worst. The 'church of satan' is definetely worse.

If our societies had remained devoutely Christian, Islam or any other religion would simply have found no place in them. There would have been no converts available. And if Muslims saw that Westerners respected holy things of Christianity and observed Christian commandments, they would have had more respect both for our faith and ourselves. Unfortunately, post-Christian societies are anything but respectable. Increasingly so. And if Christians had had as many children as Muslims do, there would have been no danger of European population to be replaced by Muslim immigrants.

Islam is an enemy of Christianity, but militant secularism is a more dangerous one.

[etdgxcnc]

Unfortunately Effie it wont help. Most westerners hate religion, infact they hate their very own decendants for being religious and have a self hating guilt conscious over it. Westerners today are content with having no holidays, no customs and nothing of value to pass down to their children. They are so void of any culture, that halloween has become their only adult holiday and having a barbeque on memorial day or whatever other patriotic holiday is the height of the year, well that and getting drunk on New Years Eve.

Kosta, I can't agree with this. A lot of people in many countries around the world have no religion at all, but others seem to think that their own rigid version of Christianity is the right one and that everyone else is wrong. Our saving grace is that there are people, no matter their religion, that love their neighbour and help him whenever they can.

I have seen amazing things here in Greece in the midst of this economic crisis. Those responsible are not doing anything, but ordinary people are giving whatever they have to those in need, no matter whether they can afford to or not.

Islam frightens me because it has become fanatic. In Mother Gabriela's book she tells us of her trip by bus to India - she had to turn back before she got there but she travelled over most of Iraq and was treated respectfully by the Muslims, even to the extent of being offered a quiet time in the prayer rooms at each bus stop. What a change from what Christians experience today.

Also Islamic law for Muslims is more important that the law of the country they have migrated to. In Australia they were plainly told that they can have as many religious customs as they like, but the only law valid in Australia is the law of the country.

In a statement released to the ABC, Mr McClelland said: "There is no place for sharia law in Australian society and the Government strongly rejects any proposal for its introduction.

"Australia's brand of multiculturalism promotes integration. If there is any inconsistency between cultural values and the rules of law then Australian law wins out."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-05-1...tralia/2717096

[Everwondopedo]

I believe that the problem of the West (including Russia and countries of eastern Europe which are now the West's backyard) is not too much Islam, but too little Christianity. DeChristianisation has left a spiritual void in the West. As nature abhors the void, it sucks in all sorts of spiritual surrogates - Islam, Hare Krishna, Moonism, occultism, satanism, neo-paganism, Wicca... Islam may not be the best among all those surrogates, but it is not the worst. The 'church of satan' is definetely worse.

If our societies had remained devoutely Christian, Islam or any other religion would simply have found no place in them. There would have been no converts available. And if Muslims saw that Westerners respected holy things of Christianity and observed Christian commandments, they would have had more respect both for our faith and ourselves. Unfortunately, post-Christian societies are anything but respectable. Increasingly so. And if Christians had had as many children as Muslims do, there would have been no danger of European population to be replaced by Muslim immigrants.

Islam is an enemy of Christianity, but militant secularism is a more dangerous one.

This is why i believe that sharia law is viewed favorably among some secular elements in the west. Subconsciously there is a spiritual void and a fear among the secularists that they have allowed their families to disintegrate and only sharia law cabn restore the moral balance. They know they have destroyed the family and they cant put the genie back inbto the bottle but sharia law will.

[Lictimind]

I would like to hear what others feel on this and what other patristic sources people have regarding Islam being "evil".

Of course Islam is not 'evil'. No more than Orthodoxy is made 'evil' by the way Serbian soldiers murdered and raped their Muslim countrymen in the early 90s.

It takes people, individuals, to make belief systems into forces for good or evil, and we're all doing it every day.

It seems more important to me to make sure we make Christianity a Good and not an 'evil' than to worry about what other individuals in other religions are doing with their day.

[codespokerbonus]

Of course Islam is not 'evil'. No more than Orthodoxy is made 'evil' by the way Serbian soldiers murdered and raped their Muslim countrymen in the early 90s.

Let us not repeat here the lieux communs of anti-Serbian propaganda. In the early 1990s, Muslims and Croatian murdered and raped their Serbian countrymen as much as Serbian soldiers killed Muslims. Atrocities have been committed by all sides to that conflict. I am especially appalled by what Albanians perpertrated in Kosovo. I visited Kosovo twice as an interpreter for an international organisation after it was occupied by NATO. The first thing I was told before going there - not to speak Russian in public places. Just a little before, a Bulgarian employee of the UN was murdered by Albanians in broad daylight because he answered a question in Bulgarian!

Serbs survive in Kosovo only under armed protection. If they venture outside protected areas, they are murdered. Albanian authorities regularly switch off water and electricity to Serbian villages and city blocks. Albanian doctors refuse to treat Serbian patients. Hundreds of Serbian churches and monasteries have been destroyed. I have seen all this with my own eyes, so I don't buy any anti-Serbian propaganda.

The whole attitude of the West to Serbia is incredibly biased and unfair. I am especially amazed by the silence of Western human rights activists about the continuing persecution of Serbs in Kosovo and about the atrocities perpetrated by Albanian criminals and terrorists who now run this province of Serbia.

[LarpBulaBus]

oh i think any man can be seduced. the west has been seduced by sex & money & there's no reason not to think that the east wont also be seduced by sex & money, once their societies becomes more affluent. Affluence, is the great sin because it's against the godly virtues of chastity, gratitude & generosity.

[AnriXuinriZ]

Atrocities have been committed by all sides to that conflict.

Anton, I give you all that and take no issue with any of your post.

But the fact that atrocities were and are committed by all does support the point I want to make in answer to the original question of this thread.

Islam isn't 'evil'. Neither is Christianity... what's evil is the harm that folks may do with their beliefs, not the beliefs themselves.

(But now making this statement, I think of an obvious challenge to my position: is Maoism evil? There is much evidence to demonstrate its destructiveness and cruelty (Cultural Revolution, oppression of minorities, etc.)... but I think this works against my point that 'guns don't kill people, people do' (ideas aren't evil, people use them in evil ways, etc.)... on the other hand, Maoism is a political philosophy, not a religion... anyway I'm digging myself deeper here and arguing against my above position!!)

[tactWeiccaf]

This conversation is running to the "political and social" and straying from Orthodox Christianity. I realize that in the "casual and personal" part of the forum, things tend to run a little loose - but we do not let go of the basic guidelines of the forum altogether so I ask all please to keep things at least in some manner connected to the Orthodox Church and the Orthodox Faith.

Fr David Moser

[enentique]

How do the Fathers look upon religions that are very obviously not Christian vs. those that are deceptively Christian? Which do they deem more dangerous of leading the faithful astray, those that are obviously nothing like the Church or those that are sufficiently close in apparent doctrine as to elicit less immediate discomfort?

[anxpuna]

It is wrong to say Islam is evil. It is wrong to say Christianity is evil. It is wrong to say Buddhism is evil. It is wrong to say atheism or Asatru or Hopi Cosmology is evil.

Evil is distance from the Creator, and He is omnipresent. Religions help us look toward that fact that He is already here with us. We might say that our religion is more useful in this than others, but we cannot say that other religions are evil.

[megatrendsZ]

I once read (I think it was even in this forum): All religions are illnesses - Orthodoxy is the healing, because it is no religion, but the revelation of God.

[MatueHarton]

It is wrong to say Islam is evil. It is wrong to say Christianity is evil. It is wrong to say Buddhism is evil. It is wrong to say atheism or Asatru or Hopi Cosmology is evil.

Evil is distance from the Creator, and He is omnipresent. Religions help us look toward that fact that He is already here with us. We might say that our religion is more useful in this than others, but we cannot say that other religions are evil.

Amos 5:15. 2 John 7. John 14:15. I think there is precedence for believing there are evil religious systems. Or at least, antichrist ones.

[Kennypor]

Ramadan Kareem. Here in Mirdif, off the eastern edge of the city of Dubai, the Muslims are fasting all day. The heat is tough, and everyone struggles with the desire, the need, to take a sip of cool water. The struggle is to wait until sundown.

I walked with my 4 year old boy to the grocery store a couple of nights ago, and on the way past the mosque I slipped on a palm frond. The dude passing us on the road stopped to check on me, helped me toss it into the yard of the mosque, by the chicken coop. Judging by his full plastic sacks, he was finally off duty from his job and on the way home to a happy Iftar.

The city is the city, and traffic is traffic, but it seems calmer this week.

The fasting makes folks, as we know from our own fasting tradition, more calm and patient with each other.

Today Islam in the month of Ramadan seems pretty far indeed from any kind of 'danger' to Christendom. They are our younger brothers and sisters; they are zealous, yes, but there is still love between us.

Let's choose to see what we share before we get angry about what's different.

God help us all.