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Loolasant 11-15-2011 10:01 AM

Quote:

Some opinions. You wouldn't need to vocalize them since they are not your own and you want to be as far as possible from them (they do not belong in your mouth -- so to speak). Vocalizing them might bind you to this method and then you think you need to always vocalize them to get rid of them, and demons will then try to get you to repeat this over and over as some sort of therapy, which actually separates your attention from God. The only time you should vocalize these (or about these) thoughts is to your Spiritual Father at Confession; tell him they bother you and what your reaction to them is. I am interested, too, in what the Fathers here have to say on this.
Interesting thought - that the demons would love to hear you blaspheme God. I completely agree. Unfortunately, sometimes they are too strong or hard to ignore. http://www.monachos.net/forum/images/smilies/eek.png What do you do in the meantime when you cannot talk with your Spiritual Father? (Or even worse, when your Spiritual Father is not helpful in combating these things?) I have come across this book which has been a helpful tool regarding varying struggles with demons, logismoi and passions:

Evagrius of Pontus, Talking Back: A Monastic Handbook for Combating Demons


The description reads:
"How did the monks of the Egyptian desert fight against the demons that attacked them with tempting thoughts? ... According to Evagrius of Pontus (345-399), one of the greatest spiritual directors of ancient monasticism, the monk should "talk back" to demons with relevant passages from the Bible. His book Talking Back lists over 500 thoughts or circumstances in which the demon-fighting monk might find himself, along with the biblical passages with which the monk should respond.... From Talking Back we gain a better understanding of Evagrius's eight primary demons: gluttony, fornication, love of money, sadness, anger, listlessness, vainglory, and pride..."

This tool has been extremely helpful for me (obviously in conjunction with prayer and talking with my Spiritual Father). It certainly is better than just letting intrusive and destructive thoughts terrorize me with no defense. They always wait until you are weak, defenseless, and not expecting them, and they always go straight for the heart in the most painful method possible, so it helps that the book is portable. Not all the passages in the book "speak" to me personally, so I added some customized verses that better suit me. I don't actually "talk to" the demons, but rather either reading it out loud, or or just silently sets my mind back to the truth of God instead of whatever distraction the demons, logismoi and passions would have me turn to. Then it can become an opportunity for prayer instead of (for me) grumbling.

So Ioan, to your point, rather than repeating what the demons say, I can repeat what God says instead. It's doesn't remove the need for confession or guidance from my Spiritual Father, but it's a much more profitable "distraction" than repeating the blasphemy or other sins.

I think this is what Adrian referred as well by quoting:
8. How the Spiritual Father is to care for those with thoughts of blasphemy and doubt
....tell them to rebut those blasphemous thoughts... 2) not to believe in their thoughts, but rather to believe and to accept those things which you say to them; and 2) if it is possible, give them in writing the rule which you appoint for them, because as they are always in doubt, they will quickly be able to believe that which they see written.
Saint Nikodemos the Hagiorite, Exomologetarion -- A Manual of Confession, Uncut Mountain Press, 2006, pp. 146-148

viepedorlella 11-15-2011 10:39 AM

With respect, I have to diagree with you Margaret. Not anything you have said per se, but that this should be attempted by laymen. I would recommend "Unseen Warfare" which though is also written for monks, is also for laymen. It warns very specifically NOT to fight demons head on, but to deflate their attack by ignoring them and praying instead. Even on your death bed, one should not try to validate ones life with the tempting demon. They know the bible inside and out much better than any human can. There is nothing they can't twist to try to confuse you. Best not to acknowledge them at all and just say "the prayer".

Paul

grubnismarl 11-15-2011 02:01 PM

Quote:

Interesting thought - that the demons would love to hear you blaspheme God. I completely agree. Unfortunately, sometimes they are too strong or hard to ignore. http://www.monachos.net/forum/images/smilies/eek.png What do you do in the meantime when you cannot talk with your Spiritual Father? (Or even worse, when your Spiritual Father is not helpful in combating these things?) I have come across this book which has been a helpful tool regarding varying struggles with demons, logismoi and passions:

Evagrius of Pontus, Talking Back: A Monastic Handbook for Combating Demons


The description reads:
"How did the monks of the Egyptian desert fight against the demons that attacked them with tempting thoughts? ... According to Evagrius of Pontus (345-399), one of the greatest spiritual directors of ancient monasticism, the monk should "talk back" to demons with relevant passages from the Bible. His book Talking Back lists over 500 thoughts or circumstances in which the demon-fighting monk might find himself, along with the biblical passages with which the monk should respond.... From Talking Back we gain a better understanding of Evagrius's eight primary demons: gluttony, fornication, love of money, sadness, anger, listlessness, vainglory, and pride..."

This tool has been extremely helpful for me (obviously in conjunction with prayer and talking with my Spiritual Father). It certainly is better than just letting intrusive and destructive thoughts terrorize me with no defense. They always wait until you are weak, defenseless, and not expecting them, and they always go straight for the heart in the most painful method possible, so it helps that the book is portable. Not all the passages in the book "speak" to me personally, so I added some customized verses that better suit me. I don't actually "talk to" the demons, but rather either reading it out loud, or or just silently sets my mind back to the truth of God instead of whatever distraction the demons, logismoi and passions would have me turn to. Then it can become an opportunity for prayer instead of (for me) grumbling.

So Ioan, to your point, rather than repeating what the demons say, I can repeat what God says instead. It's doesn't remove the need for confession or guidance from my Spiritual Father, but it's a much more profitable "distraction" than repeating the blasphemy or other sins.

I think this is what Adrian referred as well by quoting:
Margaret, I agree with you. For me, the best rule in fighting with demons is total indifference, as The Fathers teach. And that is, whatever demons say or do, it should have zero value and should not interest us because we know that they never say the truth; and even if they do say the truth, they do it for an evil purpose ( to slander you, to separate you from God, to cause you to despair).

However, it is a great struggle to get to a point where we are able to treat them with total indifference. They are very stubborn, and they keep coming back with various ways of trying to get us to listen to them and make us lose hope in God. Their blows also vary in intensity, and sometimes it seems that there's no way out. In such a situation, we see that we are forced to fight, even if we don't really believe fighting is ever any good. God allows such temptations in order to build up our strength and character, and when such things do occur He wants us to turn our attention only to Him in Prayer (like you said). This may involve all the things you mentioned, such as reciting passages from the Bible as a means of Prayer and to remind the demons what The Truth is and that we are not going to budge.


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