[TeveVikep]

I did not mean to say that greeks living in Macedonia have anything near a direct link either (iirc the exact sentence is in my OP ) just noting that in the case of slav-macedonians there is not even a link of language.
I dislike nationalisms anyway, and know very well that many people in Greece get pretty sentimental very fast about such issues, and this never helps. For example there should have been an agreement about the name years ago, as slavic madeconia or something like that

[Spisivavona]

Just let Bulgaria reannex it and be done with it.

[sydramySweame]

Someone post a map of where FYR Macedonia and where ancient Macedonia is/was.

[JohnTruels]

FYROM


Ancient Macedonia

[libertiespana]

The Macedonian Kingdom controlled by Phillip II is basically Greek Macedonia while the southern portion of FYROM used to be a culturally pseudo-Greek area of independent Macedonian tribes. The Slavic peoples didn't migrate into the area until the end of the Roman period.

[joe-salton]

All ancient writings in fyrom are written in greek

[favwebbb]

Oerdin,

the map you posted is wrong.
The Ancient Macedonia area is the one during Philip's rule, not the fabricated black line shown in the Fyromian propaganda site

For example, Paionians were not a Macedonian tribe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paionia

Btw, from the site you took your map from, here is anothe map of where the fyromian minorities in Greece and Bulgaria supposedly live
<img src=http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianMinorities/images/mac_greece.gif>

the page quotes
the Macedonian minority in Greece numbers about 1,000,000 people
Greece has a population of 10-11mil. this means that the greek state manages to keep a 10% of it's population voiceless. i'm sorry to say, but the greek state is not that efficient....

[dodadaxia]

Thessalonike (where I, and i think MarkG as well) live, has more than 1 million people, and the rest of greek Macedonia has little over another million, so it would be really hard to keep down a hostile slav minority which would be a vast majority anywhere else (since obviously there arent any slav macedonians to be found here, at least i have never met one).
Interestingly in that map Thessalonike seems to be half slav-macedonian

Btw, if the Cia factbook names the muslim minority in Thrace as "turks" then it seems that it is against the treaty of Lausannes (1922) which specifically names them as "muslim". Had they been turks then they would have been exchanged, along with the rest of the populations.

[ptmQqoxw]

Sure, however i am pointing the fact that Turkey signed the Lausannes treaty. If Turkey wanted to call the muslims in greek Thrace "turks" then they would have been sent off, like the rest of the populations between the countries. The treaty has not been cancelled, and i do not see how it could either.
And they are named as a minority in Greece, by the same treaty. It is just that they are a religious minority and not an ethnic one.

[BodeOmissemia]

Originally posted by lord of the mark The treaty may bind Turkey, but it doesnt override reality. Ethnic identity is a very fluid kind of reality. Isn't that really what the threads original issue's really about?

[Unhappu]

Originally posted by Kropotkin

Ethnic identity is a very fluid kind of reality. Isn't that really what the threads original issue's really about? yes but. Apparently over half of the Thracian muslims are of Turkish origin, and they were given rights under the Treaty of Lausanne to education in Turkish. From what I can gather so far, they are more than simply Hellenes of the Muslim faith.


And apparently the govt of Greece denies ANY existence of a slavic minority. Not that they are smaller than 10% of the population, but that they simply dont exist.

[GutleNus]

Wlachs... shouldn't they be Aromanians of some kind?

[encunnibriG]

Originally posted by varwnos
Well have you thought that possibly they do not?
It is not wrong to deny the existence of something that does not exist. Except according to HRW, Danish Helskinki watch, etc, they DO exist.


"Greece and Bulgaria are continuously failing to comply with international accords concerning human rights and protection of ethnic and linguistic minorities, while historic-based propaganda is used to justify the hostile attitude of both states towards their Macedonian minorities. These were the main conclusions of the European Free Alliance's, a European Parliament political party (EFA), fact-finding mission in the region held last week. It was led by the Catalan MEP and EFA Vice President , Bernat Joan i Mari, and the Party’s co-director Guenther Dauwen.

In a press conference held in the city of Florina/Lerin after the European Free Alliance delegation’s meetings with Greek local authorities, Bernat Joan i Mari stressed that it is unacceptable and counter-productive to continue to deny the existence of the Macedonian people and their language and urged Greece to organize an open census allowing Macedonians to declare their ethnic, linguistic and cultural origin.

The Catalan MEP, who sits on the Culture Committee of the European Parliament and a sociolinguist by profession, rejected the Greek allegations that Macedonian is a not a distinct and different language. He concluded that now is the time to overcome the burdens intentionally raised by Greece’s obsession with disputable historical facts and look towards the future based on the present situation.

The EFA representatives had the chance to witness how Greece deals with the issue of Macedonians living in the country in a meeting with high-ranking officials from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and university professors in Thessaloniki/Solun.

Although the delegation was invited to visit Greece by local EFA affiliate party EFA-Rainbow, which campaigns for recognition of the Macedonian minority, the representatives of this party were expelled from the above-mentioned meeting because they did not have a personal invitation. It is considered by EFA Rainbow that it is part of the policy of the Greek state to avoid any kind of direct dialogue with Macedonians.

The fact finding mission of EFA continued in the Pirin region of Bulgaria, home to the majority of ethnic Macedonians. According to Guenther Dauwen the situation there resembles that in Greece, Bulgaria recognises no separate Macedonian nation or language and puts all sorts of obstacles in order to avoid electoral participation of Macedonian political parties. For example, Bulgaria changed the law for the formation of a legal political party. Now 5,000 signatures are required for the official application instead of 500 in the past.

OMO Ilinden Pirin, the organization for Macedonians in Bulgaria, and EFA observer member, is so far the only victim of the 5,000 quota policy, they also face hostile Bulgarian authorities and press. Stojan Georgiev, vice president of OMO Ilinden Pirin, told the delegation that after a request to host an event in the city of Blagoevgrad/Gorna Dzumaja, the mayor replied that they should go to Macedonia to do it.

According to OMO Ilinden Pirin the mainstream media often use defamatory statements when referring to the Macedonians in Bulgaria. EFA were told during the visit that there were reports that OMO Ilinden Pirin tried to “bribe” Roma and Turks in the city of Goce Delcev with 50 leva (24 euro) in order to collect the necessary amount of signatures for the registration of the party. Georgiev categorically rejected these allegations, pointing to the miserable financial situation of the party and its members and urged EFA to intervene so that the EU makes the recognition of the Macedonian minority conditional to Bulgaria’s EU accession.

Last Sunday in Istanbul, speaking to a conference organized by Turkish associations from western Thrace in Greece, Turkish PM, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, accused Greece of ignoring international treaties and not applying the commitments it undertook regarding the protection of minorities. He also urged the EU to take a closer look at member states that do not fulfil certain human rights criteria while at the same time being extremely critical to candidate countries over the same issues. (Eurolang 2006)

[DarrenBent]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Heres what Human Rights Watch says... i dont see any numbers on the size of this minority...

[borasolit]

Originally posted by MarkG
i dont see any numbers on the size of this minority... I didnt say anything about the size, just that it exists.

If the govt of Greece is so interested in the size, they could measure it in the census.