[Uvgsgssu]

http://www.ushmm.org/education/resou...bgcolor=CD9544

[ebonytipchik]

I really doubt people know about Warsaw uprising.
Germans have felt the bitter result of a lost war, true. But in comparison to that they've started the war with all the deliberation, that they've treaten people east to their boarders as animals, in comparison with all their atrocities, their fate after ww2 is very lucky, especially that other, completely innocent or much less guilty, suffered the same or worse.
That doesn't mean You can or should not speak about it.
But with great, great caution
Because some may think it's like if a serial killer was complaining he was treated harshly by the police on the way to prison

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Most works on the holocaust Ive read give plenty of attention to Roma, Poles, Russian POWs, etc. Lately theres been new focus on the plight of gays. Im sorry if the added attention to a group that the Germans wanted to exterminate to the last man woman and child, and that was hunted down all across europe, and that was central to Nazi ideology, that Hitler talked about in his last will, etc upsets you. Not Russian, but Soviet.
It upsets me because
a) it is mostly not accompanied by depictions of sufferings of others
b) because Jews, especially American and Israeli ones, are exploiting the memory of their nation's tragedy for political gain without limits. That is why Israel has no compassion for sufferings of others. That's why Israel and many Jews are so pro-turkish in armenian case, or so biased against Poles.

I am glad You mentioned Romas and gays etc., because it reminded me something
Some time ago there's been an anniversary of liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp.
European Parliament prepared a proclamation for this anniversary, in which the prisoners of Auschwitz-Birkenau were depicted as "Jews, Romas and gays".
Only after polish intervention, Poles and Soviet prisoners of war were added. It is a scandal, in my opinion. Poles were the second biggest population among Auschwitz-Birkenau's victims, 7% or so. That's a dozen times less than Jews, but much. Soviets were the third most numerable. Yet, the elite of Europe forgot about them, but remembered about marginal in numbers Romas and gays.
In world press, especially in American, "polish concentration camp" term is being used, and indeed many people think Poles were the ones killing Jews. I remember a Bulgarian poster, was it Sir Og or someone else, wanted to offend me by saying we, Poles, killed Jews in our concentration camp. I corrected him, he accepted it, OK.
But it is more than that!
My first or second thread at Apolyton OT, once again I recall, was forced by an Israeli poster who, by the way of Eurovision contest, stated that "Germany, Poland and Austria should vote for us (Israel), until the number of their votes reaches 6 million"
And it's not only that. Again I recall when our ministry of foreign affaird, W. Bartoszewicz, a prisoner of Auschwitz himself, had to explain to someone during his trip to Israel, that concentration camps "were not possible in Poland because of consent of local polish population"
etc
If Israelis don't know what was happening in Europe during ww2, I really doubt rest of the world does.
After all, I wouldn't dare to think Israel hasn't got a good educational system, especially in this matter, or that it is teaching them not true on purpouse.

[quote]
Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
He also wanted to exterminate slavs, to empty their lands, and repopulate them with the german race, if I recall correctly Yes, at least the lands in Greater Germany (Germany incl. Austria + Bohemia + territories annected and General Gubern in Poland + etc) though it was rather seen as a long-distance plan, so Poles weren't killed at once, but treated as slave labour

This link: it's 3 million, not 1,4-1,9. Unless those people vanished in the air.

Edit:
I am completely aware there were some sporadic examples of atrocities of Poles against Jews or Germans during and immediatelly after ww2. They are often exagerrated, Jews tend to treat any attack I find cases like Kielce pogrom or Lambinowice camp for Germans evil, wrong and shameful. Poland has trialed or trials people responsible for them, though actually when it comes to polish-jewish history there's only a one point of which I am actually ashamed as a Pole, it is 1968, though my family was the victim of the occurances of that year.

Oh, and an interesting case

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4659985.stm
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/05/01/Morel_2005.html

To make the story short: after ww2, Poles and Jews commited crimes against Germans. One of the most responsible fled to Israel, which is rejecting extradition

Please notice, that in the first case the first we see areconcentration camp prisoners, bah, children, and a note that Morel lost many relatives in concentration camps.
In the second case, Morel's family losses were put to the front as well.

Indeed, as IPN (polish Institute of National Memory) official said, war criminals should be judged are they german or jewish, or polish - I may add.
Yet, a case like Morel's on one side, and as his victims on the other may force someone to forget about the proportions of fault during ww2 era. That's why I am very touchy when it comes to Germans complaining about their losses.
Perhaps too touchy.
Sorry if I've offended someone, am willing to discuss
bye

[kjsdiuwe]

a couple of years ago a documentary film about it was made by BBC I think, it might have increased the knowledge, but I really don't think people know it.
Perhaps in Germany it is different?
But lets be honest, people don't know much about history of this region as a whole.

Anyway: You know me. A Pole is one of your dearest friend :year 2000 like-Heresson mode:
So You don't count

[c6vkuNRg]

Herz an Herz!

I think that was a song about it or something or what not. Been a while.

[Sawyer]

Originally posted by BeBro


I always thought it's one of the most known things of the entire war. The fact that it even appears as event in a game like HOI should tell something..... Which Warsaw uprising are you referring to? The Jewish rising in '43, or the Polish Home Army rising in '44? I doubt nearly as many people here know about the latter as the former (except for anti-Communists looking for evidence of Soviet nefariousness)

[joanasevilyboaz]

oh yeah, Bebro probably refers to the uprising in Warsaw's Ghetto. That's how it is called here. One of the central roads in my home town in named "of the heroes of the ghetto"

2 years ago I used to live in the very centre of former Warsaw ghetto, next to the square dedicated to heroes of the ghetto. The bus stop is Nalewki, the name which is synonim of a jewish street. Except for one church, the ghetto, a large part of the city, was levelled to the ground, so the buildings are "new", from the fifties I think, low flats. They are not interesting, yet because of trees all around I find this area nice. There's a big monument of uprising in Warsaw ghetto in the central part. Part of the square is dedicated to Willy Brandt, and there's a monument of him as he's on his knees before the mentioned monument. The monument of Brandt reflect the shape of ghetto one. The ghetto square is lovely, especially the half (a road divides it in half) with the main statue, there are so nice trees there. The other side has less trees, and people tend to lay there, sometimes sun-bathing. Yet, they are planning to disturb this tranquility by building Museum of Polish Jews on this spot. I think it's a very bad idea. Any building there will completely destroy the square's characteristics. Unless it's an underground one.

[kictainiSot]

I knew the jewish guetto one, but it is the first time I hear of the polish one

By the way, heresson, I dont think people in foreign countries think poles are guilty to soem degree of the holocaust, most people only know germany invaded poland, and that poland remained occupied till the soviets came in, and then joined the soviet block.

[lierro]

I knew the jewish guetto one, but it is the first time I hear of the polish one The 44 one became (tragically) famous for its sad end. Soviet troops were so close to the city in late summer 44 when the uprising started but either failed to support the insurgents (Soviet POV) or willingly denied it since Stalin didn't want to have a successful uprising of independant, non-communist forces in Poland. As a consequence the uprising was put down by German troops, and Warsaw was near totally destroyed, not to mention a huge loss of life of both Polish fighters and civilians.

[Cd9JfGHR]

Originally posted by lord of the mark Er, no. Im no fan of ethnic cleansing, but its not the same as genocide. I agree with you on a philosophical level. They're distinct concepts. On a practical level, killing a group of people for who they are is killing a group of people for who they are. Besides, I'm sure that some of the ethnic cleansers would have killed every single German if they could have done so.

[BariGrootrego]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Which Warsaw uprising are you referring to? The Jewish rising in '43, or the Polish Home Army rising in '44? I doubt nearly as many people here know about the latter as the former (except for anti-Communists looking for evidence of Soviet nefariousness) There was recently a pretty well known book published about the 1944 Warsaw uprising. I don't know if it was a bestseller, but it was carried in every major U.S. bookstore chain that I frequent (Barnes & Nobles, Borders, Waldenbooks, Books-a-Million).


Rising '44: The Battle for Warsaw

[12dargernswearf]

Again i think there is extensive depiction of sufferings of others. You wouldnt happen to be familiar with the novel and movie Sophies Choice, whose plot is about a Polish woman and her suffering? is there a museum in Washington or Tel Aviv dedicated to non-jewish victims of ww2 Germany?

I am not going to debate that here. I think you know I disagree. I think You know it is true, but because of your feelings, or because of politics, don't want to admit that

Romas may have been smaller in number, but alongside the Jews, they were on of two ethnic groups singled out for complete extermination.

Gays are mentioned alot lately, as it was rarely spoken of till recently. That is true, but when it comes to gay people, I think it is - again - used as a political weapon, though to a much lesser extent, against the ones that don't want to recognise so-called "gay rights"

One of the Israelis will do better to answer on the level of knowledge in Israel. I think anyone over here knows that they were German camps IN Poland. Well, lets wait.

Obviously Poles had no say over the decisions of the General Government, let alone over those made in Berlin. Some Poles, certainly, were not saddened by what happened to the Jews. I do not blame the Polish nation for that, as I doubt there is any nation on earth where at least a few wouldnt take joy in something like that happening to an unpopular minority. I consider that to apply to both the US and Israel, BTW. It was what the Germans did that was the shock, the challenge to our understanding of man, God and history. I personally tend to think some folks, including some Jews, would rather think about a Polish farmer who was apathetic about the death trains passing near his fields, than about the Germans gassing the folks who came off those trains. What the Polish farmer did or didnt do is comprehensible, something one can relate to. What the German authorities did is not. But did a farmer know what's in the wagons passing his field? Didn't he have his own problems - compulsory food provisions for Germans, being taken to slave labour or expelled from his property...? If a Jew jumped out of the train and asked him for help, some would agree - but some would not, as in Poland, unlike in western Europe, a price for helping a Jew was death penalty for you and your family. Or would You help Jews, armed or not, if the only food they could get would be by robbing You, and You, by allowing it to be robbed, could be accused of helping them and being - again - killed?
What I mean is that not only others suffered as well, but they weren't free to help Jews, even if they could.
Another case is of pope Pius. He was thanked after the war by jewish community, yet communistic defamations with decades made an influence on public mind. He did help Jews, but he was accused of not doing enough, for not standing openly against nazizm, as the previous pope did. People in describing both these matters forget ww2 realities.